The Decline of MMA

[Uke]

In the beginning, Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) started out with noble ambitions. Its purpose was to put style vs. style in an environment with the least amount of rules. Biting, eye gouging and fish hooks were the only maneuvers prohibited. Pads were not required. There were no time limits. No rounds or breaks. In fact the only thing that could/should have been changed was the fact that there was a soft mat in the ring, which took away any reservations about shooting in, going to your back or attempting flying maneuvers (armbars, kicks and takedowns).

Slowly as time went on, there were some (who knows who) who had become concerned about the safety of the MMA fighters. They were grown men, who were "endangering" themselves and "needed" to be saved. So, State after State began banning MMA events. The few States that allowed them to exist and compete made "deals", where the fighters had to follow by THEIR (the states) rules. Mandatory padding. No striking while the opponent is down. No kneeing to the head. It became a nightmare for fighters because they had to think about what was legal before every kick or punch thrown. And each tournament's rules varied. Anyone who has trained knows that the slightest hesitation can get you killed, but these new rules made for this hesitation in everyone. Then they implemented the single most "reality-negating" element that they could have: Weight Classes. You cannot anticipate who your attacker will be or his height and weight on the street. So now, it's a sporting event instead of unarmed combat.

As time went further on, the style vs. style theme disappeared. Many of the fighters became frustrated due to the new rules, frequently getting disqualified due to striking "outside" of these new rules. At this point, many of the fighters began taking up ground fighting in the form of Brazilian Jujitsu, Judo and Sambo. Their rational was that it was "easier" to win by grappling because the fear of getting DQ'd wasn't there. Soon, we saw many of the men from striking disciplines going to the guard, shooting in and utilizing what would become the single most popular finishing move: Ground and Pound. It got to the point where there was barely anyone standing up without the intention of taking the fight to the soft, smooth mat.

Then out of nowhere, a passed-his-prime kickboxer named Maurice Smith knocked out Conan, one of the top grapplers at the time in MMA sports. Smith brought back hope and renewed faith for strikers, and excitement back into a sport where most of the competitors rolled around on the ground for a half hour, doing little more than pop-shotting to the untrained, non-BJJ eye. People were coming back as fans. But Smith was older than most of the other fighters and knew that his success wouldn't be long lived. So he did the next best thing: He trained an up and coming fighter whose brother had already made a name for his style and family ... Frank Shamrock.

Frank had already become accomplished at grappling due to his training in shootfighting with his brother, Ken. Now to take him to the next level, Smith began training Frank in the kickboxing style that brought him success against the grapplers in MMA. Not long after beginning his training with Smith, Frank's prowess was becoming evident. He wasn't falling or diving to the ground like before. He was standing up with guys, giving as well as he was getting. Frank went on to become one of the most successful MMA athletes of all time due to what many call cross training.

It wasn't long after Frank's success that we've seen many of the other fighter's, new and old, adopt what Frank did. Grappler's boxing and striker's grappling. We've seen Randy Couture, a wrestler, outstrike strikers. We've also seen Gary Goodrich, a striker, outgrapple opponents. And why do you think that is? Its because there are few that really work on their craft. Did you see the way that Randy Couture outslugged Chuck Lidell? A wrestler punched the hell out of a striker for the entire match. It wasn't a matter of one lucky punch or just hail-mary-haymakers. Couture actually OUTBOXED a so-called high caliber striker!

In my opinion, this happens for a variety of reasons. The first being the obvious and that’s fighters too often getting "wooed" by the success of another fighter and then automatically feel the need to train in what "that guy does". The second is because of all the "new" rules, fighters just became more comfortable training in ground and pound. Ground and Pound is the unskilled man's version of what Frank Shamrock does. Frank studied grappling for years before getting into the realm of striking proficiently. So because he did it and won, others feel that if they get muscular enough and learn a couple of ground "moves", they'll be as good as Frank. I disagree, because all of their fights wind up looking like bar fights with a lot more ground activity.

Very few strikers are comfortable with striking alone, which shows that they haven't perfected that. When grapplers are rushed by strikes, they tend to want to strike back instead of tying a guy up, choking him out or locking him up which shows that they are not comfortable with grappling by itself either. Today's MMA fighters look like they're mostly cut from the same cloth. They have a lot of enthusiasm and desire to fight, but they haven't taken the time to master or attempt to master the fundamentals, which is why today's grapplers can outstrike today's strikers and vice versa.

The first 4 or 5 UFC's in my opinion were the best. I would have liked to see the tournaments go in that direction. I would have liked to see Thai boxers stick to Thai boxing while fighting a Shotokan man. I would love to see a BJJ player fight a Sambo player. What about a Tae Kwon Do fighter who actually kicked during his match instead of wrestled? That's what was beautiful about the early UFC's, and fighters like Maurice Smith and even Laverne Clarke, who used his boxing skills when no other fighter could. Royce Gracie was undoubtedly a purist to his art and fought almost exclusively with it. How many remember Dan Severn's and Oleg Taktarov's debut? In each case, both came out as purists, giving BEAUTIFUL displays of what their arts could do if you learn it thoroughly. You actually saw Wrestling and Sambo, not some hybrid version. And they won in impressive fashion.

Now, the only purists are the BJJ guys. No boxers. No Tae Kwon Do or Karate men. No Capoeira or Kung Fu stylists. They all switched over faster than Jason Delucia did after getting beat up because he tried to grapple the Gracies. Maybe he forgot he was studying a stand-up style of kung fu. Its terrible. It seems that hardly anyone but BJJ guys see the value in their own styles anymore. It’s as if Thai boxing, Kung Fu, Aikido, western Boxing, and Karate don't have value anymore, which is ridiculous.

I should have stated this earlier in this post, but I believe that Boxing had a lot to do with where MMA is at today. MMA was fast developing into something that could have, and more than likely would have hurt Boxing's numbers. Like it or not, as much as I love what the Gracies have done for MMA, they are not exciting to watch, and when it boils down to ratings, it didn't make dollars so it doesn't make sense. The striking element had almost been eliminated due to all the "new rules" placed upon MMA, and people pay to see knockouts. Some striking has returned, but as I said before, its the bar room brawl type. Boxing, in my opinion, was afraid that the UFC was going to become the new Coliseum for the new millennium. With martial arts, there is a "mystique" that boxing doesn't have. With the UFC, there's less referee interference than with boxing. The MMA numbers were growing along with the fan base. Gracie jujitsu was being analyzed and would soon be unseated as top dog. With all this happening so fast, I honestly think someone, maybe Rorion, made a deal and that's when all the pressure and the rules came down on the UFC ... making it an ideal playground to force fighters to conform to a grappling environment.

In truth, K1 and the Abu Dhabi tournaments are much better examples at what these so-called mixed-martial artists should be aspiring to. Work to perfect your craft before trying to study an entirely different range of combat. I was always taught that the best way to teach someone nothing is by teaching them everything. And by trying to learn everything at once, it’s pretty evident that what these fighters today are doing is less systematic and more andrenaline-based brawling. The K-1 fighters should meet the Abu Dhabi fighters in a separate event, and I believe that would make for MUCH better fights. We'd actually get to see technique, and not just brawls.

I doubt that you'd see Chuck Lidell trying to grapple with Rigan Machado, or Tito Ortiz trying to strike with Ernesto Hoost. They'd likely try and stay where their skills keep them most comfortable because of the caliber of their opponent. Now THAT'S an event.

[Ronson]

Hey Uke,

Liked your post, however I do have some comments and points of contention:

It became a nightmare for fighters because they had to think about what was legal before every kick or punch thrown.
- Agree with you there. Do you remember that early UFC in Detroit city?

So now, it's a sporting event instead of unarmed combat.
- I think it's a comprimise NHB organizations needed to make in order to survive and continue with the promotions that us fans love. Unfortunately the unarmed combat was marketed as a spectacle rather than a sport. Packaging is everything and I think you'll agree that Joe and Jane Public has an easier time wrapping their heads around combative sports rather than "human cockfighting."

As time went further on, the style vs. style theme disappeared. Many of the fighters became frustrated due to the new rules, frequently getting disqualified due to striking "outside" of these new rules. At this point, many of the fighters began taking up ground fighting in the form of Brazilian Jujitsu, Judo and Sambo.
- I have to respectfully disagree with you here bro. The style vs. style theme disappeared because the fighter's realized weaknesses in their game and needed to plug the holes (initially by "strikers" needing grappling experience followed later by "grapplers" learning to strike). The fighters who insisted on remaining "purists," for whatever reasons, realized that in terms of the Octogon and it's rules, they were not going to successful in that particular competition. The "strikers" needed to learning grappling/submission in order to apply "anti-grappling." This was the birth of MMA and cross-training (credit Bruce Lee with the theory and Pat Miletich for its early application)

It seems that hardly anyone but BJJ guys see the value in their own styles anymore. It’s as if Thai boxing, Kung Fu, Aikido, western Boxing, and Karate don't have value anymore, which is ridiculous.
- Just speaking only in terms of effectiveness in the Octogon/Ring, there is still value in the above styles you've mentioned above (defined by the individual practitioner) but in MMA, where the goal is to win, a Dawinian evolution in MA occured. Individual MA styles were not necessarily thrown out into the trash bin, only that the techniques that were being tested with acceptable reliability were kept. It only seems like Karate, TKD, and Aikido were thrown out because very few of their techniques are employed today in MMA (although you'll see them from time to time - what's that TKD fighter's name in KOTC?).

And by trying to learn everything at once, it’s pretty evident that what these fighters today are doing is less systematic and more andrenaline-based brawling. The K-1 fighters should meet the Abu Dhabi fighters in a separate event, and I believe that would make for MUCH better fights. We'd actually get to see technique, and not just brawls.
- that's a pretty wide sweaping assumption don't you think? I think the opposite is true. I've seen pro/am fighters train and I'd argue that they are even more systematic, disciplined, and controlled in their training and fighting. They watch tapes of their opponents, continually strive to improve in all aspects of the game, not to mention dieting and training hard. They are true athletes in every sense of the word.
- I think by going back to the good ol' days makes for great spectacle rather than great fights - and also leading to more miss-matches. I think that MMA's fan have had their fill of the "Ettish" and "Ranger Scott" type matches (I agree with you that's what the N.A. market goes for in mass these days - although hard, I think Zuffa going in the right direction by focusing on "butts in seats" type fighters and slowly introducing the ground game. It's gonna take a long time for N.A. fans to reach the understanding that Japanese fans have).

Once again I enjoyed your post and welcome your response.

[Uke]

First let me thank you for your response and follow by adding I'm glad you enjoyed my post. Let me begin by pointing out that Bruce lee was neither the first to come up with crosstraining nor was Pat Miletich the first to apply it. Florendo Visitation had been living that theory years before Lee came to America. Kajukenbo is just another example that predates Lee's ideas. Crosstraining can also be seen in ninjitsu, which is a combination of arts meant for assasination.

"-I have to respectfully disagree with you here bro. The style vs. style theme disappeared because the fighter's realized weaknesses in their game and needed to plug the holes (initially by "strikers" needing grappling experience followed later by "grapplers" learning to strike). The fighters who insisted on remaining "purists," for whatever reasons, realized that in terms of the Octogon and it's rules, they were not going to successful in that particular competition. The "strikers" needed to learning grappling/submission in order to apply "anti-grappling." This was the birth of MMA and cross-training (credit Bruce Lee with the theory and Pat Miletich for its early application)"

I agree with you that the fighters felt that they needed to “plug” the holes in their games. But that’s just it: Pug the holes, don’t destroy the wall and create a new one. That’s basically what they’ve done by abandoning their original disciplines. People like Maurice Smith learned enough grappling to reverse and escape … the anti-grappling you spoke of. He did not do what Jason Delucia did by claiming Kung Fu but only practicing grappling. Remco Pardoel stayed faithful to Judo. Dan Severn stayed faithful to wrestling, as striking had NEVER become his mainstay. If anything, Oleg Taktarov had forsaken his art as he began striking more and more as the competitions went on, and submitting less and less. Vitor Belfort studied grappling, but remained faithful first and foremost to his boxing. Shawnee Carter stayed faithful, as you can still see him executing spinning back fists and spinning leg kicks. Its ok to mend a hole in your game, but these guys are becoming whole different animals all together.

"-Just speaking only in terms of effectiveness in the Octogon/Ring, there is still value in the above styles you've mentioned above (defined by the individual practitioner) but in MMA, where the goal is to win, a Dawinian evolution in MA occured. Individual MA styles were not necessarily thrown out into the trash bin, only that the techniques that were being tested with acceptable reliability were kept. It only seems like Karate, TKD, and Aikido were thrown out because very few of their techniques are employed today in MMA (although you'll see them from time to time - what's that TKD fighter's name in KOTC?)."

I do not believe any “evolution” took place because you have yet to see the best of any given style step in the ring. You haven’t seen the best karate fighter or judo player. You haven’t seen even close to the best kung fu practitioner or Aikido master. We haven’t seen a world champion caliber boxer in any MMA yet. We’ve seen the best of who was willing to get in the ring. If you think for a moment that Fred Ettish or Scott Wizard were even close to the best that their styles had to offer then you’d better think again and do some investigating on your own. The skill level of the average MMA fighter is less than an instructor’s level, let alone a master’s level. When you watch these events, karate looks like judo which looks like Tae Kwon Do which looks like ninjitsu in which they all look like what? A bar room brawl with undisciplined punches and kicks being thrown until they get close enough to either land a big shot that KO’s the guy, or clinch into a grappling situation. I’m not saying that these guys haven’t learned anything, but I am saying that like the case of Kimo, who admittedly studied nothing and gave Royce and others fits, they are toughmen competitors who come to fight. Anyone who has seen discipline, whether it be football, basketball, tennis or gymnastics, can tell when something is being done sloppy or with honed skills. Professional boxing looks nothing like these guys. The striking alone shows the lack of skill involved in these tournaments. That’s why Couture was able to focus solely on boxing lessons in the gym and we saw what he did to Liddell. Just a few months of disciplined boxing made Liddell look like a novice.

"-that's a pretty wide sweaping assumption don't you think? I think the opposite is true. I've seen pro/am fighters train and I'd argue that they are even more systematic, disciplined, and controlled in their training and fighting. They watch tapes of their opponents, continually strive to improve in all aspects of the game, not to mention dieting and training hard. They are true athletes in every sense of the word. I think by going back to the good ol' days makes for great spectacle rather than great fights - and also leading to more miss-matches. I think that MMA's fan have had their fill of the "Ettish" and "Ranger Scott" type matches (I agree with you that's what the N.A. market goes for in mass these days - although hard, I think Zuffa going in the right direction by focusing on "butts in seats" type fighters and slowly introducing the ground game. It's gonna take a long time for N.A. fans to reach the understanding that Japanese fans have)."

I don’t think that its an assumption at all. That’s exactly why I gave those two examples: The K-1 and Abu Dhabi tournaments. One contains today’s best strikers, with professional boxers slowly joining the fray, and the other contains today’s best grapplers, with the grappling being pure grappling. These men are perfecting their crafts. Looking at tapes and improving your game is nice, but they aren’t mastering the fundamentals of their arts. The proof is there. They are very poor strikers, and once they step in the ring with a K-1 fighter that would become apparent. If 98% of the MMA competitors were to enter the Abu Dhabi, they wouldn’t survive the first round. My point has always been that its difficult to rate these guys because they do nothing great but many things mediocre. Randy Couture is a 40 year old man who beat the stuffing out of MMA’s two best rising stars. And he did it with relative ease. Neither fight was close. I want the MMA events to start attracting real talent. I want more of the Orlando Weit's than the Roland Payne's. I want more of the Marco Ruas' than the Kimo Leopoldo's. More of the Francis Botha’s than the Melton Bowen's. Let’s get the Machado Brothers in the UFC and see how a BJ Penn and Carlos Newton would do against them. We’ve already seen how a Tito Ortiz would do against a Frank Shamrock.

I wanted to say this in the last post. The guys have gotten bigger over the years and less skilled, unless you call ground and pound being more skilled. And while we are on the subject, let’s call into attention the steroid factor. The only guy I’d really accuse of being on steroids in the early UFC’s is Ken Shamrock, and that’s a question that’s been posed to him before. As time went on, we’ve seen Josh Barnett go from flabby to fit and get suspended for it. We’ve got fat guys with hanging bellies that have six packs. I don’t doubt that they work out, but I know for a fact that many of these guys training for these events use steroids now because I’ve met some of the guys personally. You can see it, and they admit it like its no big deal. Why? Because they’re not in it to find out what discipline is better. They’re in it to win money, so there’s no honor lost or shame to be felt for them.

Masters aren’t stupid. They’re not going to fight some of these kids half their age knowing that the kid is juiced up and because of it has an unreal pain threshold. I personally know men who train as if they were getting ready to fight the devil himself. These men are fanatics in the art. They live and breathe it, and reach levels that most never will. These men have professional abilities and could put a trained man out of commission with little effort. But when you fight someone on juice or drugs it’s an eye opening experience. A kick or punch that should maim just agitates. They’re stronger and more determined. They’re resistant to injury. And when you have competitors that look like they could place in a bodybuilding show(ala Evander Holyfield), you know the deal.

The good ole days were better because it was the start of something that could have turned into something much bigger and better. It could have become the lure that brought many masters and students of masters out of their isolated circles. We may have got a chance to see the techniques and ability that showed us another level. But instead, MMA has become a factory that gets young men who aren’t aware of their own mortality, trains them in a crash course that consists of punching, kicking, shooting, sprawling and ground and pound. Then they offer them juice, or at least turn a blind eye to its use so that we can feel that the competition is “evolving”.

K-1 and the Abu Dhabi are closer to the original idea of the UFC and they both draw better talent. As I previously stated, if we were to get more of the MMA guys to compete in either tournament, you’d see the difference in caliber. You’d see the difference in skill level. You’d see less undisciplined chances being taken and much more caution. As time goes on I believe that we will see those tournaments evolve because someone will come along and make them raise their game. If in the next year all K-1 fighters came to Pride and the UFC, there would be some belts moving around. Only TOP grapplers would survive, like in the case of Noguiera vs. CroCop. The same will happen if the Abu Dhabi grapplers begin flooding the other tournaments.

Again, it was a pleasure reading your well written response.

PS How are you able to italicize some words, and make bold others? I haven't been able to figure that out. Thanks in advance.

Uke

[Ronson]

Uke, you can alter the fonts with the options on the left upper corner.

Thanks for getting back and intelligently responding to the actual thoughts and points of contention. It's so refreshing when someone responds to your questions and challenges rather than skirting the issue and resorting to name
calling. Once again, kudos to your rebuttal.

I actually agree with you and see the increasing success of fighter's who stay "faithful" to and mastering their primary M.A. - your examples were great and just as I was reading it, I said to myself, "Oh yeah, just like the "Axe Murderer" (come on now, the guy has solid ground skills but sticks to what he does best - man can that guy knock poeple into next week).

Anyways, nice talkin' (although your suggestions for MMA/combat competitions would be great, don't you think their up there with wishing for World peace? I guess I we could dream huh? Just playin')

[Mr. Miyagi]

It was UFC VI specifically that got (Rep) Sen John McCain on the warpath against the UFC. I didn't sit down and watch that event with him, but can see how it was ill conceived. Accomplished pro fighters should fight accomplished pro fighters.
You had that grotesque fight opening the tournament between Tank and Matua. Matua had no business being in the UFC and that fight ended very badly. I enjoy most of the early UFC's but the way this fight ended made me sick. Matua KO'd and in convulsions on the floor, Tank imitating his arm motions, and the audience screaming for blood, is definitely a cause for concern.
And then you had Paul Varelans vs Cal Worsham, and this time neither fighter belonged in the tournament. They fought like little kids, and Varelans being the bigger kid, won a very ugly fight with both fighters possessing no technique at all. It was pathetic that Varelans with his foot height advantage and 100 lb weight advantage was getting the worst of it before landing the elbow to the back of Worsham's head.
In both of these fights so far, both losers could have been seriously maimed. Civilized western countries don't allow this. I blame the UFC more than politicians for the craziness of UFC VI.
Then you have Tank beating the crap out of the skill-less Varelans, with the ending of that fight being where Tank was grinding Varelans's face with his knee and turning him into a bloody mess, while smiling. And then he says in the interview that he was getting aroused while doing that. That's some sick $hit. None of that stuff should be happening either.
I believe if McCain had only seen some of those fights, ie Oleg vs Beneteau, Smith vs Moncayo, even Oleg vs Tank he wouldn't have flipped out on the UFC and been moved to use his influence to stop them.
Other ridiculous fights in the early UFC's included big fat Yarborough vs Hackney, John Hess vs Andy Anderson, Pat Smith vs the ninja Scott Morris, Fred Ettish vs Johnny Rhodes, Gordeau vs Tuli, and Kevin Rosier vs that guy in UFC I. All of those fights involved one or both of the fighters possessing no skill and fighters who don't have professional level skill shouldn't be there.
The screening process for the early UFC's wasn't good. Ken Shamrock described it in one of his interviews, it wasn't thorough at all. Maybe they could have taken the events to Brazil or another country that would allow it and then sell the videos via an overseas corporation? And maybe they could have made sure the fighters knew how to fight.

The weight classes and many rules (no elbows on the ground, no blows to back of head, no headbutts, no kneeing) do take away from the reality of the fight, but they are absolutely necessary to safe competition.
Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr did a kind of fight and Burr turned out to be the better shot, but that kind of think shouldn't happen in a civilized society. Likewise with Pat Smith pummeling the ninja with elbows and Tank beating the crap out of a slow fat guy from Hawaii who shouldn't be in the ring with him. Anything that seems obviously unsafe gets banned.

[Uke]

Hello and thank you for you comments, Mr Miyagi.

I agree that the events could at times be too much for the weak stomached, but I do feel the need to remind you that there are more serious injuries in football and boxing than there are in MMA. There are deaths in boxing. There are deaths in Nascar. My point is that there are risks we take. Boxing, because of the gloves gives us the illusion that the man is being hit softer, when in reality, the man is getting hit much harder because the hitter has no reservations about holding back due to his fist being protected and his wrist wrapped. Rugby is another international pastime that sees more serious injury in a season than MMA does.

Weight classes aren't really that necessary as we saw Keith Hackney defeat Emmanuel Yarborough, Royce Gracie defeat countless heavier opponents and Shamrock defeat the heavier Severn. We've seen Ruas chop down opponent after opponent, each being heavier than himself, with relative calm and ease. It wasn't a necessity as much as it was a choice.

The screening process should be more thorough so that no one gets killed in there. There are many tournaments, sanctioned and illegal, that require you to have either made a reputation for yourself or be recommended by someone who's judgement they trust. The UFC/Pride/KOTC should be no different. Joe Blow, a postman during the week but a warrior at the YMCA on the weekends, should NOT be able to compete in these tournaments.

Believe it or not, with the rules so easy to manipulate, no serious martial artist will be willing to risk his life in the tournament. The reputation of one's style is worth more than a million dollars if you are the respected head of it. One million but no respect for what you've dedictaed your life to isn't a good trade off. These competitors have NOTHING to lose, and only a fool of a master would risk all he's trained for against a man who has nothing to lose and not even enough money to buy a decent house.

That's like the Gracie challenge: They call out all types of famous fighters in order to get publicity, but stand to lose little in comparison if they are defeated. But on the flip side of the same coin, when Emin Boztepe called out the Gracies, notice how not one Gracie answered the challenge? It was because of the same reason: The Gracies stood to lose more in defeat than Boztepe did. Their reputation means everything to them. Do you think that a professional boxer like Jermain Taylor would fight BJ Penn at this point in his career? The answer is no, because he stands to lose millions if his air of invincibility is destroyed. In the future it may happen. But as for now, we'll only get the guys who feel like they're washed up in the sport like Botha.

Its silly to pretend that the rules were created to protect the fighters when in reality we know that it was just a platform to either protect votes or garner them. Politicians saw that it was a growing concern and saw the votes they could garner by seemingly "championing the people's cause". Each candidate for governor that year could then put on their resume that they voted "no" on no-holds-barred events because they "care" about the people.

What a crock.

[mosin]

mma evolvement

Most of the fighters in the early UFC were mostly "toughman" types, Varelans, Tank, etc., they would eventually lose, easily and badly. And the Gracies were to build upon wins on these hapless bums their air of invincibility. The Brazilians proved the superiority of their systems against these type of opponents. How to defend against submissions became an important aspect for the striker to learn and just win by strikes. I can see that a wrestler like Coutoure can fight and even win against Liddell and that Brazilian kickboxer by strikes, even though his boxing skills are pathetic to say the least. The question is, How does one intend to win? For the wrestlers they opt for strikes, instead of submissions, seems strange, but they know that grapplers can't take a punch, just like them, and going for submissions would seem risky. Jermaine Taylor will be willing to fight a BJ Penn, if the price is right. A skilled boxer like Taylor would have a greater chance in MMA than Laverne Clark will ever have. Check out Clark's boxing record. 8-10 straight losses by KO before entering MMA. Not bad!

[radicus]

I think it would make for a boring show. I don't think any pure striker will have a chance in MMA no matter how good he is.

[gregimotis]

I think it would make for a boring show. I don't think any pure striker will have a chance in MMA no matter how good he is.

Agreed. I'm a primarily a striker, I prefer stand-up fighting, but I'm under no illusion that pure stand-up fighters will lose to pure ground fighters most of the time. It's just much harder to stay up than to fall without either a lot of luck (quick KO) or going totally defensive (running away from the takedown... of course you'll back into the ropes eventually).


Of course, it's not pure anything, it's mixed.

[Mister]

There is no decline of MMA. MMA has gotten better if anything. Much, Much better. Its become a sport, closely resembling real combat. (Notice I didnt say self-defense, theyre two different things) Why do you think fighters started learning how to fight in all ranges? Because they needed to so they wouldnt be tapped out by a BJJ guy, KOed by a striker, or GnP by a wrestler. The most effective fighter is one who is effective at all ranges. Even though everyone specializes in their skill, the best fighters fight in all ranges. Uke, I cant believe you would want MMA to return to the way it was before. The fighters are now so much better than the fighters in the old days. MMA has shown us what will work. Thats why people train Thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling, Boxing, Judo, and Sambo. Because the training methods and the techniques work. Your claim that these fighters are unskilled is so absurd its not even funny. Theyd have to be considering many of them train 10 hrs. a day. OK so maybe theyd be better at striking if they trained all those 10 hrs. on only boxing, but then if the fight went to the ground theyd be dead meat! Any well rounded MMAist will beat any pure striker anyday... and that has been proven. The bottom line: To be succesful you must have all the skills. You cant be limited by your style. As to why people dont use Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, etc. Well they tried, but it didnt work too well because, as in the case of Dave Benetaue vs. Asbel Cancio, they didnt know any TD defense and that stuff simply doesnt work.

As for the thing about the weight classes, we definitely need those. Why was Hackney able to beat Yarborough? Maybe because Yarborough is slow fat and unskilled! Same anser for why was Rua able to beat Varelans. But if you put two fighters with good technique in the ring, the stronger more powerful one will probably win. The elimination of weight classes would bring this sport back like 10 years ( I bet youd like that Uke) Any big guy with OK technique, could overpower a smaller guy with great techniques and he would win. Just cause he was bigger. Both skill and power matter. MMA is supposed to measure a fighters skill, not how well he can overpower a guy he out weighs by 100 pounds!

The rules are fine, so what you cant hit the back of the head hit the top! Wanna see footstomps? Watch Pride. Dont head butt dont knee a downed opponent. Its pretty easy.

So you wanna see people being loyal to their style? orry but being loyal to your style means you only learn what your style teaches. And no pure boxer would make it in MMA for too long. Everyone who is succesful concentrates on what their good at.Wandy? Thai Boxing. Sakuraba?Submission wrestling. Mir? BJJ. Randy? Wrestling. Chuck? Kickboxing.Noguiera? BJJ. Yoshida?(An Olympic Level Judoka) Judo. All these guys are crosstrained, professional fighters and theyre the best in the world because of it. However they specialize in their styles and many of them are some of the best at what they do (Randy, Yoshida, Nog.)But they have made it because they crosstrain while focusing on what theyre best at. They are true MMAists. In my opinion, they are the best in the world when it comes to fighting. Those guys in the old days wouldnt last a second gainst the fighters listed above.

[Ronson]

Hey Uke,

I wanted to revisit some points in your posts/response and welcome your response.

I do not believe any “evolution” took place because you have yet to see the best of any given style step in the ring. You haven’t seen the best karate fighter or judo player. You haven’t seen even close to the best kung fu practitioner or Aikido master. We haven’t seen a world champion caliber boxer in any MMA yet.

- First off, how could you say an evolution/revolution of martail arts has not taken place? For ages, before NHB/MMA, the debates and effectiveness of Martial Arts were based on theory, conjecture, and anecdotal evidence. Today, MMA competitions provide us a near true to life litmus test to what is effective in a fight ("as real as it gets" - ok, ok, there are rules and rounds, but I'll take a top ranked MMA'er over a martial art purist along with eye gouges, groin strikes, pressure points, dim mak,...)

- Why do we need to see a "real" master in competition in order for you to give respect to MMA'ers? The sumo, karate, kung fu, tkd, and aikido guys were more than competant within their own style and for the most part, at "black belt" levels. We've seen BJJ stylists from blue belt to master level do well in competition along with highschool to olympic caliber wrestlers. It just goes to show that not all "black belts" are created equal and surely not indicative of fighting prowess.

- Seeing the "masters" compete in MMA will never happen for one real reason (all others are just excuses). They would get creamed. They're "master" in their particular style of Martial Art. They are NOT "masters" in FIGHTING. They realize this, and rightfully stay away. If you were a world ranked sprinter, why would you ever knowingly enter a decathalon? Yeah, you might whip 'em in your event, but you'll get whipped in every other event.

[Uke]

Well well well.... looks like we have ourselves a discussion here.

I do not feel that there has been an evolution. My reasons are logical and still have yet to be proven otherwise. The poster "Mister" stated that MMA has shown us what will work. In the ring with a ref, yes. In the street absolutely not. What has distanced today's MMA from earlier Gladiator games and even more recent underground tournaments is the prospect of real injury occurring. Whether you gentlemen agree or not, today's MMA competitors are more willing to take chances with high-risk maneuvers ONLY because they know that if they even seem like they're taking a little too much abuse, the ref will end it. What's real about that? No one in their right mind would go to the guard in a street altercation, and for a variety of reasons. The first being the turf, which would tear up knees, elbows and forearms in a shoot alone. Then you have multiple attackers. Then you have the ultimate equalizer: a weapon. No matter if it were Rickson or Helio in his prime, a pen knife would kill either. Where's the reality in practicing something you wouldn't do in the street?

It seems that the events are now resembling Vale Tudo, an event in Brazil where they grapple alot and strike to create openings for more grappling. You say that the competitors have gotten much, much better? In what way? I know they're in much better shape, as is obvious by the many muscular, ripped guys who were fat just 6 months ago. They're tougher, as steroids raise your pain tolerance. But better skilled? Who? Who is a better grappler than Royce or Severn? Who is a better striker than Ruas or even Gerard Gordeau? If they are much, much better as "Mister" suggests, then they should be able to compete with the likes of Mirko CroCop, Ernesto Hoost, Jerome Lebanner, Rigan Machado, Jean Jaques Machado, Royler Gracie and "purists" like them, right? I doubt it.

Of course, there are glimpses of caliber in each of these tournaments. BJ Penn, Fedor Emelianenko, Mirko Filipovic, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. But the majority of the other fighters are just what I said: ground and pound, juiced up or toughmen. For you to say to me that their skills are MUCH MUCH better says to me that you don't understand what you're watching. A real boxer, not a guy who trains at a Mom & Pop store front shop, would take 80% these guys apart. Watch the films. Of the many knockouts, most are due to exhaustion, not good or great technique. One guys steps in, throws one punch, JUST one punch, and catches the other guy sleeping. That my friend, is toughman striking. Not disciplined striking you see in boxing. Not disciplined striking you see in K-1. When Nogueira beat Crocop, it was because he was smart enough to use what he trained for. Nogueira is no "evolution" in MMA. He's simply a higher caliber grappler, just like Royce Gracie was. Mirko is no "evolution" in MMA. He's simply a higher caliber striker, like Maurice Smith was.

If you need further proof, then let's examine another side of this. Patrick Smith, Kimo and a few other have tried their hand at "pure" striking contests to see where their skills "stood" in comparison. They were all beaten unmercifully. Many grapplers have gone to the Abu Dhabi to test their grappling skills, and many of the MMA guys don't make it passed the first round. My point is that if you're a striker but you cannot strike with the upper echelon of strikers, or if your a grappler but cannot grapple with the upper echelon of grapplers...you do all things mediocre but nothing great or even good for that matter. The reason that Nogueira is so accomplished is because there aren't many grapplers that have his skills in any MMA event. In the Abu Dhabi, it would be a very different situation. The reason that Mirko Flilpovic is so accomplished in MMA is because nearly no one strikes as well as that man in MMA. However he knows that in K-1 he would not enjoy this much success. It is simply a case of what I want more of: Masters coming out and competing. I would go as far as to call Nogueira a master grappler, and Filipovic a master kickboxer. Against other masters of what they practice they might not shine as bright, but against the MMA cannon fodder, they are at the top.

The evidence is there in the UFC when 40 year old wrestler Couture decimates the top two young fighters in that organization. He outstruck the striker and outgrappled the grappler. What SHOULD that tell these fighters? STEP YOUR GAME UP. That's EXACTLY what Frank Shamrock did, and he became the best of his time because of it. That's what Couture did, and he undoubtedly is the best of this era of UFC fighters because of it.

Truth be told that if the K-1 competitors were to take some "anti-grappling" lessons and really get the feel of how to reverse and counter grappling assaults, THAT WOULD BE THE NEW "EVOLUTION" YOU ALL SPEAK ABOUT. You'd soon see all your favorite MMA stars getting knocked out in embarrassing fashion. That would be my bet, as we've seen evidence about that from a passed his prime Maurice Smith, who taught Frank Shamrock to strike.

So you feel that MMA shows what works? I say it doesn't. It shows the holes in other peoples game but ground and pound would get you killed in a situation without rules. Gracie Jujitsu has set off a chain reaction that has led many of you to believe that it "works". I agree that BJJ works. HOWEVER...how many of you have ever been in a fight off the mat or in the street and used BJJ to fight off attackers? How many of the "bouncers" on this board have survived a bar-room brawl using BJJ? How many of you have been a victim of gang violence, and managed to fend off the attack using BJJ? How many of you have shot in for a take down on concrete or asphalt? Of you, how many have missed the first time and were willing to attempt it a second time? Better yet, how many of you who weigh under 150lbs are willing to fight those who weigh over 250lbs? Only master grapplers like the Gracies and such can endure the storm to submit or choke a guy 45 minutes later. Why is that? Because they've always got their people around them for back-up, or they're fighting in a situation with rules and regulations. Is that the work-works-in-reality situation you were speaking about?

I'm convinced that many people who believe what we are discussing have never been in a fight. Especially outside of the dojo. So they come to conclusions that have no substance. Theories and suppositions based on how well the idea of a thing is articulated. Yes, the Gracies have won over 300 fights undefeated. But of those fights, how many times were their lives on the line? And of those fights, in how many of them were there weapons present? How many "companions" did they have with them at each fight? I've seen footage of them in Brazil and in EVERY instance they had at least 10 people with them. What's honorable about Gracie Jujitsu is that it promotes the "fair" fight. But what's honorable about it is the very thing that makes it so unrealistic. There is no honor in a street fight. And any thin "really" does go.

Also, I didn't claim that I wanted the guys from the old days to come back. I stated that I wanted the old format to come back. The style vs. style format. The no rules, no pads format. The no rounds format. The no weight classes format. All you guys keeps talking about what works the best but you'll never know if you keep putting guys exclusively against guys their own size and weight. Basically, you haven't found a style (crosstraining) that works, but a format that is more entertaining to watch. Many of you speak as though crosstraining is something new that came about because of MMA and Bruce Lee. You're wrong. All crosstraining means is to learn different ranges of combat, not every style out there. Hapkido itself is considered a traditional art, but it clearly teaches all ranges of combat. So does Vee Jistu. So does Kajukenbo. So do many different syles of Kung Fu. And they ALL pre-date Bruce Lee and MMA events. Kicking, punching, elbows, knees, grappling, flowing and weapons are the ranges of combat. On the inside and from the outside. Many styles before and after them have combined the ranges.

As a sport, I think MMA is exciting to watch, especially to the non-trained. As a source of combat, it won't prepare you for a street confrontation, whether it be a rape defense, a gang assault or even domestic violence. Ground and pound, which is primarily ground grappling with some punches, is best suited to learn as a defense against someone who may be trying to use it against you, or if you're being rushed. Otherwise, you'll find yourself on the ground where you'll either get stomped, stabbed or punched out. Where's the "evolution" in fighting the same way Westerners have been for centuries?
Punch or kick until one man gets tired of getting hit, then he rushes in, they tussle, and fall to the ground trying to gain a superior position. When one finally does, its either reigning punches from the mount or a rear naked choke. That's the "evolution" you speak of? You can see similar fights in nearly all cowboy movies. You can see that SAME EXACT fight at the end of Lethal Weapon, a scene choreographed by none other than Rorion Gracie. A film over 10 years old but you say there's been some so-called "evolution"?

Again I ask "Where?"

"If you were a world ranked sprinter, why would you ever knowingly enter a decathalon? Yeah, you might whip 'em in your event, but you'll get whipped in every other event." - Ronson

Ok Ronson, I'll give an analogy of my own to answer this. In a fighting video game, there are fighters with many different styles and "moves". There are guys that are pretty good with everyone, and then there are guys who stuck with one character and use him extremely well. The guy who uses just one character usually can beat everyone that the guy who picks everybody uses. The usual and most common complaint I hear my nephew receive?

"Why don't you choose somebody else?"

[C. Montes]

guys - if most of you are not frequent visitors to the JKD forum, then one - good for you, and two - you would probably be interested in reading 'Uke' thread on there about 'the floating punch'

it seems to me that someone who subsribes this 'floating punch' non-sense must not have good grasp of what it means to train, compete, or fight in an MMA/realistic manner. if you have the time to pontificate such things then i think your time would be better spent training and testing out any of these MMA theories you have and relying on personal experience to point you in the right direction. thats exactly where the MMA evolution is. you of course entitled to you opinion - and pls don't take this as an sort of personal attack - it just seems that you your opinion is not as informed/educated as you may giving yourself credit for.

[C. Montes]

"The reason that Mirko Flilpovic is so accomplished in MMA is because nearly no one strikes as well as that man in MMA. However he knows that in K-1 he would not enjoy this much success. "

CroCop KO'ed all his opponents with head kicks in the first K-1 tournament he ever entered. he made it to the finals where he was beaten by Ernesto Hoost - no shame there. it was Ernesto's night. the reason he fights in Pride is because they are now the bigger promotion and offer him more money.

the reason more 'masters' don't come out and fight is because they know they are not athletes and their art is not a performance based art that can actually help them in a realistic fighting situation or if they are already a combat athlete - it may be too much for their ego or physicality to incorporate realistic crosstraining whether its striking, wrestling, or bjj.

"That's the "evolution" you speak of? You can see similar fights in nearly all cowboy movies. You can see that SAME EXACT fight at the end of Lethal Weapon, a scene choreographed by none other than Rorion Gracie. A film over 10 years old but you say there's been some so-called "evolution"?"

the correct point is made from the wrong perspective - you're right, there is no evolution there but its best illustrated by the guy laying the floor getting punched/submitted/choked for lacking a viable delivery system to fight in a totally foreign evironment.

[Jaguar Wong]

I'm a little confused...You say there's no evolution in MMAs, yet you point to Frank Shamrock. He's one of the examples I would have used to show that there is some evolution in the sport. I also point to Bas Rutten, and if you want a more recent example, Duane Ludwig (Bas Rutten's student). He's a fantastic striker, and when he's taken to the ground, he goes for submissions, and tries to bring the fight back up if he's unable to finish it on the ground. He's an excellent example of the evolution they're talking about.

Chris Brennan is another "evolved" fighter that you're glossing over. In fact many of the top guys in the King of the Cage are excellent fighters that have developed a very strong set of skills because of the evolution they're talking about. Each has a strong set of skills both standing and on the ground, yet they all specialize in something. Marvin Eastman is a skilled grappler, but he's known for his Muay Thai. Vernon White is very difficult to beat on the ground (The Lion's Den does a fantastic job of training him to keep the fight where he's most comfortable), and has some great strikes. Like I mentioned, Chris Brennan is an excellent grappler, yet he's finished a fight or two by KO. Duane Ludwig (one of my current favorites) kicks some serious butt both standing and on the ground (most guys he's fought tried to bring the fight down, because of his strikes, yet he holds his own on the mat as well).

I don't want this post to be taken the wrong way. I'm not trying to come off as angry, I'm just confused as to where you actually stand on the matter. I know you want the bare knuckle brawls brought back, but what does it matter which style they use? The hybrid styles you see coming into MMA today are just as much of a style as Muay Thai, or Judo. Just because they mix elements from other styles doesn't mean that they all just hop around, not developing the skills properly. So what if they're training for the ring. They're still better off on the streets than some belt chaser coming out of a McDojo (I'm not talking about the hardcore TMAists, I'm talking about the other 90+% that attend the strip mall dojos and McKwoons).