some thoughts on striking vs graplling as well as judo vs bjj

[EmptyneSs]

it seems to me there is a alot of people that undersestimate striking and think grapplers have a better chance vs a striker. Currently i do western boxing, muay thai, i used to do judo, and i do some bjj now. What struck me the most out of all these arts is what just western boxing alone had to offer. Boxing makes u able to see things coming at u really fast, as well as evade or counter. Stikers also learn to keep themselves planted while keeping distance between his enemy. Boxing also teaches clinching and stand up grappling, as does muay thai. Muay thai has more in it though. Im not really talking in terms of UFC though, im talking in terms of real life, because ufc and real life arent the same. I have a friend who does Kajukenbo. Basically his art is straight up for street fighting and self defense. Although they do practiuce grappling, the way the fight on their feet is what makes them so devestating. Unlinke ufc, they attack peoples vulnerable spots. In real life u dont really have time to roll around on the ground trying to get an armbar or trying to sink in a choke. In kajukenbo they will throw multiuple strikes to ur throat, groin, or gouge ur eyes or kick in ur knee. U cant do any of those in ufc, so if u fight someone in the street with a ufc mentality or a bjj mentality, u could get hurt. striking is rediculously effect in my opinion. it makes ur reflexes, and sight very fast, it gives u aweosme footwork wich can help u evade or attack, u leran to be acurate and can determine range well and set up combos .The only problem is it can be too effective if done properly. Its good to know a grapple art for the times when the threat isnt too serious, like mabye its a fight over some dumb shit. U dont wanna kick out the guys knee, or break his facial bones. U could mabye just put him in a restraining hold.


In my opinion, i think judo may be actually better than bjj. Ur takedown defense becomes very well, and u can easily take others down.u learn to trick people into getting thrown and how to use ur weight, or u oppenets weight to ur advantage. In judo u can always use ur body and stature to ur advantage as well regardless of shape or size while standing up. Also, usually when judo people throw, they are able to hold on to an arm, wich becomes an armbar real fast in judo. A big difference between judo and jui jitsu is the speed. People in bjj can take there time, roll around, work for an armbar or choke, but in judo u cannot. If u are on the ground for too long they stand u back up, therfore skilled judokas learn to do things fast.In judo, if it doesnt happen right away, it wont happen at all. Because of this they learn to execute throws, chokes, and armbars with incredible speed. In judo u only have a few seconds to finish the oppenent off on the floor. I think because of this judo is actually better. Judo has less submissions, but u know what, they dont need em because they get so proficicent with only armbars and chokes.There grappling is very tough too. I know there are alotta people who think bjj is the best thing ever because of mma, and ufc and whatnot, but i think there are misconceptions. Bjj is a great art, but really, i think its usefulness comes best in the ring and in competition. Alot of bjj moves are now for competition only, like jumping into guard, or flying armbars and whatnot. I mean, look , muay thai is like 2000 years old, and it was used for combat, its definitely battle tested. The reason muay thai didnt include grappling was because in combat u did not have time roll around on the floor, because if u did u would probobly get killed. All im sayin is bjj may be great in ufc and mma, but that doesnt mean its the best just because it does great in those.Competition and practicing is a SAFE way to train for the street, beacuse the street is never safe. Standing up and striking is ur 1st line of defense, its incredibly important. Its good to know the grappling in case the gap is closed and ur forced to grapple.

anyway, if u disagree its cool. this was just a common sense, down to earth opinion of mine.

[sherwinc]

it seems to me there is a alot of people that undersestimate striking and think grapplers have a better chance vs a striker. Currently i do western boxing, muay thai, i used to do judo, and i do some bjj now. What struck me the most out of all these arts is what just western boxing alone had to offer. Boxing makes u able to see things coming at u really fast, as well as evade or counter. Stikers also learn to keep themselves planted while keeping distance between his enemy. Boxing also teaches clinching and stand up grappling, as does muay thai. Muay thai has more in it though. Im not really talking in terms of UFC though, im talking in terms of real life, because ufc and real life arent the same. I have a friend who does Kajukenbo. Basically his art is straight up for street fighting and self defense. Although they do practiuce grappling, the way the fight on their feet is what makes them so devestating. Unlinke ufc, they attack peoples vulnerable spots. In real life u dont really have time to roll around on the ground trying to get an armbar or trying to sink in a choke. In kajukenbo they will throw multiuple strikes to ur throat, groin, or gouge ur eyes or kick in ur knee. U cant do any of those in ufc, so if u fight someone in the street with a ufc mentality or a bjj mentality, u could get hurt. striking is rediculously effect in my opinion. it makes ur reflexes, and sight very fast, it gives u aweosme footwork wich can help u evade or attack, u leran to be acurate and can determine range well and set up combos .The only problem is it can be too effective if done properly. Its good to know a grapple art for the times when the threat isnt too serious, like mabye its a fight over some dumb shit. U dont wanna kick out the guys knee, or break his facial bones. U could mabye just put him in a restraining hold.


In my opinion, i think judo may be actually better than bjj. Ur takedown defense becomes very well, and u can easily take others down.u learn to trick people into getting thrown and how to use ur weight, or u oppenets weight to ur advantage. In judo u can always use ur body and stature to ur advantage as well regardless of shape or size while standing up. Also, usually when judo people throw, they are able to hold on to an arm, wich becomes an armbar real fast in judo. A big difference between judo and jui jitsu is the speed. People in bjj can take there time, roll around, work for an armbar or choke, but in judo u cannot. If u are on the ground for too long they stand u back up, therfore skilled judokas learn to do things fast.In judo, if it doesnt happen right away, it wont happen at all. Because of this they learn to execute throws, chokes, and armbars with incredible speed. In judo u only have a few seconds to finish the oppenent off on the floor. I think because of this judo is actually better. Judo has less submissions, but u know what, they dont need em because they get so proficicent with only armbars and chokes.There grappling is very tough too. I know there are alotta people who think bjj is the best thing ever because of mma, and ufc and whatnot, but i think there are misconceptions. Bjj is a great art, but really, i think its usefulness comes best in the ring and in competition. Alot of bjj moves are now for competition only, like jumping into guard, or flying armbars and whatnot. I mean, look , muay thai is like 2000 years old, and it was used for combat, its definitely battle tested. The reason muay thai didnt include grappling was because in combat u did not have time roll around on the floor, because if u did u would probobly get killed. All im sayin is bjj may be great in ufc and mma, but that doesnt mean its the best just because it does great in those.Competition and practicing is a SAFE way to train for the street, beacuse the street is never safe. Standing up and striking is ur 1st line of defense, its incredibly important. Its good to know the grappling in case the gap is closed and ur forced to grapple.

anyway, if u disagree its cool. this was just a common sense, down to earth opinion of mine.

i dont know any BJJ, Judo, Grappling, Japanese JuiJitSu, AiKiDo, etc..... but what is the difference between BJJ and Japanese JuiJitSu??????

and why is it that my Chinese instructor insist that in Japan, for him, Japanese JuiJitSu is the most Brutal Form of Martial Arts??????

[EmptyneSs]

well bjj is more for competition and mma i think.BJJ focuses on ground work and finishing somone on the ground, or fighting for posistion. Japanese jui jitsu however is actually a pretty well rounded martial art. I used to look at JJJ books at the school library were i went to college, and i really liked what it had to offer. They had grappling, joint locks, pressure points, punches, kicks, chokes, throws, and all kinds of stuff. Some of the techniques were rreally lethal too, because its more of a self defense art. There are strikes to vital points, submissions that are meant to break necks, and things like that. For a martial art, its very well rounded and it contains many lethal moves.

[wardancer]

I have a friend who does Kajukenbo. Basically his art is straight up for street fighting and self defense. Although they do practiuce grappling, the way the fight on their feet is what makes them so devestating. Unlinke ufc, they attack peoples vulnerable spots. In real life u dont really have time to roll around on the ground trying to get an armbar or trying to sink in a choke. In kajukenbo they will throw multiuple strikes to ur throat, groin, or gouge ur eyes or kick ...


In my opinion, i think judo may be actually better than bjj People in bjj can take there time, roll around, work for an armbar or choke, but in judo u cannot. If u are on the ground for too long they stand u back up, therfore skilled judokas learn to do things fast.In judo, if it doesnt happen right away, it wont happen at all Standing up and striking is ur 1st line of defense, its incredibly important. Its good to know the grappling in case the gap is closed and ur forced to grapple.

anyway, if u disagree its cool. this was just a common sense, down to earth opinion of mine.

Hum,
I think Kajukendo and all MA that follows the theory of hitting the so called 'vulnerables spots' are useless. Such people will spend hours training on such techniques' based on the theory that it will win a fight. The problem is that they can only pratice on 'willing' partners and never can use/experience such techniques versus an unwilling partner. therefore, it make such training useless. It is like riding a bicycle indoor compare to riding a bicycle outdoor. In theory, Kajukendo is still a MA but a competition/battle tested MA. It always will have the stigma of being the MA of 'if I hit in that spot, it will do that..'

Because the day they are confronted in a street fight, all that training will be irrelevant because it was not 'battle' tested.; they will panick, they will not know the amount of force to use, they will have no knowledge of timing etc..see the first UFC with MA thinking that their techniques were so great until they 'ended' on the floor for exemple.

I do believe that they are genuine MA people that do believe on the 'vulnerable spots' theory but for me, it it is not tested against an 'unwilliwing' partner like a competition with experienced participants, it is not worth learning.

In Judo and BJJ. by taking away the dangerous elements, students can grapple at full power thus gaining expertise in applying techniques on an opponent who is fighting back at them.

The stuff of Judo being superior to BJJ is correct from your point of view.
But from my point of view, judokas are weak in defending chokes and locks because they only have to stand up so the referee intervine and make both fighters stand-up.
Such referee stoppage does not happen in street fight so it is a negative for the Judo. It makes it a useless MA from that point of view.

I do not see your point about the speed of tecniques applied.
I think speed in BJJ grappling is not so important. It is just you and an opponent with a referee that would intervene rarely like you get of the mats.

Many people says that a street fight end up very quickly because that the nature of the street fight.

What about the woman getting attacked?
Do you think the fight will over quickly?
Do you think there is referee stoppage?
Do you think her MA knowledge of a 'poking eyes' /hitting vulnerables spots by weeekly practicing on a willing training partner will be of any good?

[EmptyneSs]

Hum,
I think Kajukendo and all MA that follows the theory of hitting the so called 'vulnerables spots' are useless. Such people will spend hours training on such techniques' based on the theory that it will win a fight. The problem is that they can only pratice on 'willing' partners and never can use/experience such techniques versus an unwilling partner. therefore, it make such training useless. It is like riding a bicycle indoor compare to riding a bicycle outdoor. In theory, Kajukendo is still a MA but a competition/battle tested MA. It always will have the stigma of being the MA of 'if I hit in that spot, it will do that..'

Because the day they are confronted in a street fight, all that training will be irrelevant because it was not 'battle' tested.; they will panick, they will not know the amount of force to use, they will have no knowledge of timing etc..see the first UFC with MA thinking that their techniques were so great until they 'ended' on the floor for exemple.

I do believe that they are genuine MA people that do believe on the 'vulnerable spots' theory but for me, it it is not tested against an 'unwilliwing' partner like a competition with experienced participants, it is not worth learning.

In Judo and BJJ. by taking away the dangerous elements, students can grapple at full power thus gaining expertise in applying techniques on an opponent who is fighting back at them.

The stuff of Judo being superior to BJJ is correct from your point of view.
But from my point of view, judokas are weak in defending chokes and locks because they only have to stand up so the referee intervine and make both fighters stand-up.
Such referee stoppage does not happen in street fight so it is a negative for the Judo. It makes it a useless MA from that point of view.

I do not see your point about the speed of tecniques applied.
I think speed in BJJ grappling is not so important. It is just you and an opponent with a referee that would intervene rarely like you get of the mats.

Many people says that a street fight end up very quickly because that the nature of the street fight.

What about the woman getting attacked?
Do you think the fight will over quickly?
Do you think there is referee stoppage?
Do you think her MA knowledge of a 'poking eyes' /hitting vulnerables spots by weeekly practicing on a willing training partner will be of any good?

Actually the reason i brought up the vulnerable spot thing was because i was very surprised at how effectively my friend is able to use them. There actually not that hard when u train him. He can easily evade a strike and brush or gouge someones eyes, or hit him in the groin or throat. My friend has only been training like 6 months and he can do it very easily. Alot of kajukenbo training involves work on reflexes and speed with hands. U dont need to stick ur fingers in ur openents eyes to know it will hurt him, u just need to be fast and know how when to use it when ur opponent has opened himself up. BTW kajukenbo was tested again and again on the streets, thats why its the art of street fighting. it was created in hawaii back in the day. There was lots of crime so blackbelts of a few diff arts came together to train techniques that work. They then took what they had learned to the streets of hawaii and quickly became known for there prowess on the streets. My partners training is very tough. He is always covered in bruises, and students regularly break noses and bleed. They do practice on willing partners, they do it more so than bjj actually. In kajukenbo, when they grapple, they use strikes to the body and sometimes 1 person has to grapple 2 or 3 people at once.

Also, judokas are not weak at defending chokes. Were did this come from? The only things they can be finished on the ground with is chokes and arm locks, dont u think this being the case the would easily know how to defend both??

And as i said, u dont need speed in bjj because in competition u can take ur time and work for a choke or submission. Same in ufc and mma, u can take ur time , or until time is up. In real life its speed that matters, if u are attacked in a street u dont want to spend time on the ground working for his arm or neck, u want to finish him as fast as possible. Thats y i said judo was better for this, because they train to do everything fast.

oh yeah, and hitting vulnerable spots is very very effective, thats why those spots are vulnerable. I mean, u can throw a strike to an eye or throat, and at the same time kick to the knee or groin or vice versa, and in fact its not that hard, since wichever u throw first, ur enemy will focus on it and not see the other one coming. KRav maga is similar to kajukenbo. It is very fast and uses multiple strikes to the eyes, throat, nose, and groin. This art is this way because like kajukenbo, it wasnt for mma or ufc, it was meant for people to survive an attack on the street or in a bad situation.

[CKD]

I have trained some strikes to vunerable spots in Sambo but we do not put a huge emphasis on them because you know why? You can't master an eye gouge. An art that only relies these techniques will be in trouble. Although as I have said before I train them we put less emphasis on these rather and train more in boxing and kickboxing strikes. The vital strikes are good to know but you need the other ones that can be practiced safely too. How do you know your friend can easily eye gouge someone? Has he ever done it or is it just him stopping before it hits the eyes? Its pretty hard to do an eye jab when someone is swinging punches at you like a maniac and grabbing on to you and you are suppossed to stick your finger the size of a dime into a place equal in size. If you are going to master say a football tackle then you need to tackle someone right? If you are going to master a jab you have to hit someone who is resisting right? How are you suppossed to master an eye gouge then if you can't use it on someone? Eye gouging was allowed in early mma shows and people have attempted it with little success. Gordeu bit Gracie but that did not do anything did it? Just got Gracie mad enouph to choke him unconcious. I saw another one with a wing chun guy who attempted an eye jab and just couldn't seem to pull it of on the guy who throwing punches at him. About this Kajukenbo "street testing". Just about every art can make this claim and they tend to over-exagerate how much crime there was. Did you know that TKD is used by soldiers? Does that not make it battle tested. TKD was made in Korea during a huge crime influx but it still sucks. There are not much recorded evidence about the Kajukenbo people in streetfights are there? The only evidence that we have is the CLAIM that there was a lot of crime and they tested it. But if I wanted to check out how ROSS was used there are several documentations of soldiers using it in wartime and if I wanted to check out muay thais effectiveness I could watch Cro Crop. Vital strikes won't necesarily stop a fight either. A friend of Matt Thorton who is a cop saw a man grab a golf club and swing it into the front of the neck of another man. The man made a funky noise with a throat took a few breaths and pulled out a knife and went after the guy. MMA fighters are not taking there time on the ground, both are skilled at groundfighting and know how to defend submissions, if they see one they take it but if they don't they are going to have to set it up. The average person on the street will not know defense and will be taken down and the person can get a sub easily. Can you tell me where these street martial artist are that can beat UFC fighters on the street? There has been no evidence that all these street martial arts are any more realistic. Actually the only evidence we have they failed. There have been plenty documentations of people using vital strikes and failing. While there has also been many stories of the MMA fighters in streetfights and none of them have had much problems. About this multiple opponent sparring. Most of the time the people are not trying to hurt the person. In a lot of schools you will see this multiple opponent sparring where the 2 people can win easily but they don't. Then they go fight in mma and get a beat down. It seems the injuries your friend get is because lack of blocking skill. I have seen bad schools were students become like that because when it comes down to sparring they just ducj there heads low and swing.

[radicus]

I don't think there is anyone who underestimates striking.

[Crabpuff]

damn about time some one has meantioned Kajukenbo. The truth is that it has been battle tested, I know one Sifu who trains the Border patrol down here by mexico. The man is all about being efficent, his has been battle tested man times and I have seen some of the border patrol he has trained in action. The training for me is actually alot lighter than what it should be, we are still rough, but me being in the military I have already been reprimanded for injuries incured in the past. But Regardless many of the techniques are not "if i hit this spot" . Most are followed up by a bunch strikes as insurance. Like any grappling we do or on joint locks there is striking involved as insurance when trying to get the grapple to work. I have a friend that is a work out machine and he has wrist that are fatter than a bat, most wrist locks cant be used on his wrists be cause of his strength, but when i try and strike his groin or go for his eyes, and once i struck his sternum it be came easier to apply the lock. But like all arts hit has it weak spots.

[CKD]

Having a person claim they have used it over the internet is not really hard proof. People have made the same claims about other arts even if the arts do stink. TKD could be considered battle tested but is it really that effective? Not really.

[Crabpuff]

your absolutly right, i preach the same thing. Hey TKD gotta work for some people if they keep teacing it.

[CKD]

TKD does not have to work. There are just a lot of schools and people do not know that some arts are more effective than others.

[jubaji]

In real life u dont really have time to roll around on the ground . In kajukenbo they will throw multiuple strikes to ur throat, groin, or gouge ur eyes or kick in ur knee. U cant do any of those in ufc, so if u fight someone in the street with a ufc mentality or a bjj mentality, u could get hurt. striking is rediculously effect in my opinion. The only problem is it can be too effective if done properly. Its good to know a grapple art for the times when the threat isnt too serious,

Here we go again...

[Crabpuff]

that's why i said TKD is for SOME PEOPLE.

[jread]

TKD has worked for me before. Then again, it wasn't "McDojo" TKD either. We trained in the more traditional style with a little grappling, throws, weapons defense, knees and elbows, etc. The base, though, was TKD so it was considered a TKD school.

I have personally never trained at one of these crappy American TKD dojos but I've sparred people from them. I was not impressed, lol.

[EmptyneSs]

I have trained some strikes to vunerable spots in Sambo but we do not put a huge emphasis on them because you know why? You can't master an eye gouge. An art that only relies these techniques will be in trouble. Although as I have said before I train them we put less emphasis on these rather and train more in boxing and kickboxing strikes. The vital strikes are good to know but you need the other ones that can be practiced safely too. How do you know your friend can easily eye gouge someone? Has he ever done it or is it just him stopping before it hits the eyes? Its pretty hard to do an eye jab when someone is swinging punches at you like a maniac and grabbing on to you and you are suppossed to stick your finger the size of a dime into a place equal in size. If you are going to master say a football tackle then you need to tackle someone right? If you are going to master a jab you have to hit someone who is resisting right? How are you suppossed to master an eye gouge then if you can't use it on someone? Eye gouging was allowed in early mma shows and people have attempted it with little success. Gordeu bit Gracie but that did not do anything did it? Just got Gracie mad enouph to choke him unconcious. I saw another one with a wing chun guy who attempted an eye jab and just couldn't seem to pull it of on the guy who throwing punches at him. About this Kajukenbo "street testing". Just about every art can make this claim and they tend to over-exagerate how much crime there was. Did you know that TKD is used by soldiers? Does that not make it battle tested. TKD was made in Korea during a huge crime influx but it still sucks. There are not much recorded evidence about the Kajukenbo people in streetfights are there? The only evidence that we have is the CLAIM that there was a lot of crime and they tested it. But if I wanted to check out how ROSS was used there are several documentations of soldiers using it in wartime and if I wanted to check out muay thais effectiveness I could watch Cro Crop. Vital strikes won't necesarily stop a fight either. A friend of Matt Thorton who is a cop saw a man grab a golf club and swing it into the front of the neck of another man. The man made a funky noise with a throat took a few breaths and pulled out a knife and went after the guy. MMA fighters are not taking there time on the ground, both are skilled at groundfighting and know how to defend submissions, if they see one they take it but if they don't they are going to have to set it up. The average person on the street will not know defense and will be taken down and the person can get a sub easily. Can you tell me where these street martial artist are that can beat UFC fighters on the street? There has been no evidence that all these street martial arts are any more realistic. Actually the only evidence we have they failed. There have been plenty documentations of people using vital strikes and failing. While there has also been many stories of the MMA fighters in streetfights and none of them have had much problems. About this multiple opponent sparring. Most of the time the people are not trying to hurt the person. In a lot of schools you will see this multiple opponent sparring where the 2 people can win easily but they don't. Then they go fight in mma and get a beat down. It seems the injuries your friend get is because lack of blocking skill. I have seen bad schools were students become like that because when it comes down to sparring they just ducj there heads low and swing.

As i said before, yes ive seen my friend attack someones eyes before. Some bigger guy at a party was being an ass and pushing him around, so my friend attacked. He didnt "gouge" out the guys eye, but he very quickly used his hand to brush the guys eyes, and then fallowed this up a few punches and kicks. The point isnt to stick ur finger into a small spot, u just need to brush there face enough to distract them. Then u can fallow up with additional strikes. Its not hard at all, especially if u have the reflexes and speed to do it. Also, it is true u should not rely on these kind of strikes, they are just to throw people off there game so u can then finish them with other techniques, however dont underestimate them. They have their place. Also the bruises my friend gets from his training in kajukenbo is not from a lack of blocking, there training is just very tough and realistic. In fights u should expect to get hit therefore they get hit all the time. In fact they do drills were they take turns kicking eachother in the stomach, or legs and whatnot. This will enable them to be able to take hits that would usually hurt or end a fight for them.