SD vs. Mutually Agreed Combat II

[Hermosa]

Out of curiosity, since you're obviously against the war, what would have been your choice of action?

To apologize...


For the supreme arrogance of the American way of life. For only representing 15% of the planet's population but comsuming 90% of the worlds natural resources. For keeping nations opressed and hungry so we can grow beef for McDonalds and then trying to hide it by sending "care" packages to nations of our choice. For ignoring all rational attempts of others to communicate their displeasure with our wasteful, money mongering, goverment..that the only way they feel they can get our attention is to fly planes into buildings.

[Hermosa]

Osama Bin Laden is still at large and we continue to cut forces in Afghanistan?

Of course..The Bush administration is in deep cohoots with the Bin Ladens.
..You didn't actually think they would let us capture their boy? ...ah but, someone has to take a fall and appease the people...Saddam will work.

[darrianation]

I was going to put this in Hermosa's thread, but I think it's worth its own...

Has anyone given any thought to the idea that "Self Defense" isn't necessarily just defending your life or limb?

Maybe it's defending your right to an unmolested evening at the bar or restaurant or what-have-you?

Maybe it's defending your personal space from rude , intrusive behavior of others?

Maybe it's pre-emptively defending yourself against an impending attack or against predictable recurrences of violence?

Maybe it's defending yourself from the escape (and ensuing loss of restitution) of some butthead that just damaged or destroyed your personal property?

I'm not sure I believe any of those things, but I am sure that I believe that self defense doesn't begin when I am on the floor and being mounted and ends the second I reverse so that I can run away.

"Self Defense" extends beyond the immediate danger of physical violence. I'm just not sure how far...

Yah, now your talking! Lets kill every one that pisses us off!

[EmptyneSs]

we leveled a whole country so iraqis could drink pepsi and eat big macs

i turn on the tv and see iraqi kids with there arms and legs blown off screaming in hospital beds. sadly its always the women and children that are the biggest vitctims of bs wars like these.

sadly theres nothing we can do but shake our heads everytime we turn on the tv and hear the news from the front.

**** bush he single handedly fucked up the whole world.

[jubaji]

we leveled a whole country so iraqis could drink pepsi and eat big macs

i turn on the tv and see iraqi kids with there arms and legs blown off screaming in hospital beds. sadly its always the women and children that are the biggest vitctims of bs wars like these.

sadly theres nothing we can do but shake our heads everytime we turn on the tv and hear the news from the front.

**** bush he single handedly fucked up the whole world.

A real Political Scientist here!

[EmptyneSs]

i know this is a diffucult subject, and there is so much to say about it. i dont have all the answers man, nobody does.

saddam was for sure an evil man, but i mean at least there was some stability before we invaded. i was born here, but my parents are from iran. saddam used wmd's on iranians in the iran-iraq war. i know all about that man. sadly, it was the usa that put him in power in the first place and when he used wmd's on iranians the usa didnt make a single objection.

yes saddam has done many bad things in his reign . we know this, but the fact is life is way worse for iraqis now than it was when saddam was around. did u know that iraqis are still to this day dying from radiation from depleted uranium shells we left there from the last war? i dont think another war is what they needed. and as i said before the worst part about all this is its always the women and children who suffer the most, not the real criminals.

i dont understand why u brought up the world trade center when talking about iraq, because iraq and saddam had nothing to do with any of that, osama and his group did. osama and saddam werent cool with eachother, they both looked down on one another for living the way they did, and this was known before we invaded. 9/11 was fucked up, but we are blaming the wrong people for it. personally i think we should have focused more of our military efforts in afghanistan, and not iraq.

also i mean no disrespect to any of our soldiers. i hate the fact that they are in a place they dont really need to be. our soldier deaths are going to surpass 1000 pretty soon, with i think like more than 6000 wounded. the impact of veterans returning from war is gonna be realy big on our society, because so many of them will have psycological problems from the hell they have seen. what pisses me off more is how they are over there going through hell, while there are bitches over here that are more concerned about there starcbucks, fur coats, and clothing and accessories and all that fucking useless shit people obsess so much about.

i dunno man, im just so frustrated. everytime i read the news or watch it on tv, its nothing but bombing after bombing, more death, more destruction, more kidnappings, beheadings, more fire, and more carnage. its so frustrating and upsetting, it bothers me alot.iraq is in absolute chaos, but the bush administration trys to play it down everday.

i blamed bush because he is a bastard. it wasnt a snap judgment. i have many many many reasons why i hate him. him and his homies sit on there asses and get rich off the fat of the land while the children of america are being killed and wounded everyday. he dont have any kids fighting over there, wtf does he care. he is happy to see the big business corporations of his family and his friends go over to iraq and get fat contracts. if u dont think this is true, just look at news articles on iraq talkin about how half the money that was supposed to go to aid for iraqis is now going to be loans so they can use it to buy our products and have our companys over there makin money. whats funnier is how are supposed to be helping them now, yet halliburton was recently caught overcharging iraqis for their own fucking oil. halliburton ripped off iraqis for more than 60 million dollars in overpriced fuel. do find that odd? what i find even odder is that halliburton used to be run by that peice of shit mr cheney. wtf is going on here? those rich right wing fucks are sitting on their asses and making more and more money off the suffering of others, even though they already got more money than they will every need. there all in cahoots man. big business corporations are fucking everyone in the ass. its really not fair waht is going on and sadly nothing can be done about it. dont u hear about all the contracts that were handed out and how big business companies competed so hard to get them? its all money bro , all fucking money. haha the first thing we did when we got to iraq was secure the oil fields. u could say we did that to protect the earth in case the wanted to light the wells, but that isnt true because the bush administration dont care about the environment. if u look at some of the things he has done while in office u will see that he has tried to pass so many laws that are harmful to our environment. as long as we can cash in on some untapped resource, bush doesnt care if he is fucking the environment. thats why environmentalists hate him. bush and his administration aint cool. they lied to us and used our sarrow and fear from 9/11 for personal and finacial gains, and that is fucked up. this is all true, its hard to beleive , but sadly it is true.

its hard to even enjoy the simple things when u know that others are going through absolute hell.

war is fucked up, i wish we could all live in peace but i guess thats jsut not how it goes.

[Uber_Tap]

Good thread. Life and death issues have to take precedent right now, and Kerry certainly doesn't seem to offer a solution to the problem. Kerry has taken a strong stance on every issue and I respect that. It has to be hard to be on each side of every issue.

Everyone is aware of the Michael Moore books and his movie, and of course how he talks about Bush's Saudi ties. If you do your homework though you will find that Kerry has received campaign contributions from the Saudis, so his moral hi-ground has been wish-washed away in that regard.

All crap aside, I hope every one votes. I just pray that you don't vote blindly, do your homework first. If after that you feel Kerry is the strongest candidate then by all means vote for him.

Good thread by the way.

[jubaji]

i blamed bush because he is a bastard. .

Kid, do yourself a favor and finish a bit more school before 'sharing' your wisdom on such matters. You'll be glad you did later. Trust me.

[kengar]

Saddam had already used WMD's.

Iraqis are better off. They are no longer living under constant fear of being raped, tortured or murdered. For the first time in decades their soccer team is at the Olympics. Funny what they could accomplish when not constantly being threatened, tortured, watching their families being raped and murdered or murdered themselvs because they missed a goal. Serveral dozen were murdered with their families, over 100 were tortured.

Kind of glad to see this debate, but really too tired to go at it right now.

[Hermosa]

I have no love of Saddam..but there are MANY tyrants in the world. First of all its not our place to tell others how to run their country. We don't need to run around playing world policeman. But still..even if it was, and our intentions are so noble and it truly is the safety of America we're after...Why aren't ALL our forces in N. Korea?

Could it be we only pick on the guys we know we can beat? Could it be for reasons other than safety?...Money, Oil, power, ...covering up old mistakes?

War is NOT natural. It is NOT human nature. Nothing good comes of it. Violence begets violence.

Please visit www.costofwar.com

[Hermosa]

Iraq, and the rest of the world: I am sorry, on behalf of all Americans for being so wasteful and powerful.

....AND, me and my goverment are willing to finally listen to some of what you have to say. I can't guarantee that we will all agree, but we are ready to make the effort to end the separtist, intolerant, my god is better than your god, mentalities of yesteryear. We are also willing to admit, that maybe we've been a little bit stingy and horded a few things. We are willing; not to give up our way of life, but to come together as a global village and discuss more efficient management of resources and sharing. We know the time has come to embrace mankind and this planet as a whole and start living as one unit. Sorry again, for not being receptive to your problems in the past..lets make a pact right now to never again use violence as a tool to communicate.

Thank you,
Mike Brewer and the great nation of America.

[DJColdfusion]

This is wonderfully uncomfortable. Two people I respect making comments that I agree with (yes both of them).

America has abused her power; however, this is a function of the political and economic elite. The people of America do not believe we should force our ideals on the rest of the world or rape/pillage the rest of the world, yet we as a country are doing exactly that.

The great thing about this country is that we can vote those politicians out and deny the crooked economic elite any power by changing our purchasing habits. We can act.

At the same time, when someone from a less-advantaged society complains about American culture corrupting their "world," I have to ask "why don't you change the channel, put that coca-cola down, stay off the Internet, etc."

Just as we can change our economic reality, they can refuse to allow our culture to over run theirs.

America has done much to take advantage of those less economically advantaged. We can make it a more fair "playground" by supporting legislatio that requires corporations that operate in America to operate by the same essential rules that they use here when they do business in other countries. We can also, on a personal level, spend our cash with companies that do treat their non-USA clients/partners fairly.

You can't just say that "We" (America) has f*cked everything up because they (individuals and governments) have an equal responsibility for their actions. We may have influenced them, but they jumped on the ride.

And as far as a tool to communicate, its dispicable; however, this is going to get me in trouble. When it comes to terrorism, suicide bombs, car bombs, open attacks on civilians in anyway are not a reaction to opression or a cry for justice, they are an act of terror. Their purpose is to encite fear in a given populace and that is it. They murder the innocent, their is nothing noble about it.

It is not noble when a Palestinian blows himself up in a crowded bus station, nor is it noble when an Israeli helicopter blows the hell out of a group of houses in the Gaza strip. Both are acts of terror, they should be despised, and we as human beings (not just Americans) need to make damn sure that our leaders understand that we do not support terrorism no matter what the source.

If we have faith in Democracy then we have to believe that we can make changes.

[Uber_Tap]

Remember the Israeli's intentionally target civilians in their strikes, while the Palestinians only target Israeli soldiers.

HandtoHand no disrespect, but are you joking or smoking crack? The Palestinians have boarded buses strapped with bombs killing only civilians. They have blown up night clubs killing only civilians. The Israeli's have plenty of blood on there hands to, but please don't try to show the Palestinians as the good guys in this conflict. I'm not sure there is a good guy in this conflict.

[Hermosa]

No reason to feel uncomfortable. Me and Hermosa talked off-line about this, and we both agree that this is an exchange of ideas, and not a personal offensive. We get along, and we're not upset with one another. We're just debating both sides of an important issue.

That's right. I am totally Cool with Mike. I love that guy! This has just been serious fun for me. I tend to be a bit more controversial on this forum than I would be in person just because..it's a forum, that's what it's for! Besides it's been a hell of a ride

Definately don't sweat me..


"Billy passed the 3rd grade...OH what a glorious DAY-YAY!...YEA..ROCK ON"

[EmptyneSs]

having an exchange of ideas is great. and its even better when it doesnt include people who just want to be negative for the sake of being negative.