Strategy against Larger Opponent

[Hikage]

You're missing the point...

You guys are really missing a major point here. You are not going to head into the eye of the storm and come out unscathed. A little guy (like myself being only 5'8" and having no muscle mass) cannot defeat a larger attacker by wrestling with his mass. Doing judo throws are going to get you killed. I don't care how much you think you understand about off-balancing. You aren't going to defeat him in a grappling match on the ground either (I know we're in the BJJ forum, sorry).

Frequenty, our school is contracted to help with the training of members of the "3 B world" as I call it: Body Guards, Bouncers, and Bounty Hunters. These dudes we work with are routinely well over 6 feet and weigh (usually) over 250lbs. They are the kind of student who demand that you "do that on me" and expect that you are going to have to put the technique on them while they are resisting, as one of their opponents would resist against them.

I am commonly called on to assist in their instruction, being the senior student in the class and have had many of them on the floor. If I were to attack their mass, I would be embarrassed very quickly. Rather I understand 2 basic concepts.

First, the ability to strike properly to offset my man. Judo off-balances are great, and the philo is sound, but you are not going to pull off someone who has their wits and who has any skill with recapturing their balance. To counter this, you need to understand how to effectively strike from close range, how to strike w/short, circular motions, how to rip muscle and penetrate to the bone, how to make your strikes cause a body reaction. One you have caused a body reaction, your opponent is reacting to the pain and the loss of their game plan.

Secondly, seperate something. There are 5 points of balance: head, 2 arms, 2 legs. Instead of going in for the major throw, seperate one of the 5 points of balance, create a lock and take your opponent down and hang on to the lock while on the ground. Instead of attacking their mass by doing some form of throw, you can attack the weaker points of their body. The opponent's arm cannot resist a properly applied lock, AFTER the opponent has been properly set up through proper and pin-point accurate striking (see above paragraph.)

In short, when two people of the same size fight, you have the perfect match. But when you are dealing with someone larger than you, you have to think differently and use your size to your advantage. You mentioned that you wanted to be able to defend yourself against a larger, less trained, opponent. There is no reason tha tyou couldn't defeat an equally trained larger opponent, because each of you has your own advantages; it's a chess match.

Sorry I didn' thave time to proofread.

-Hikage

[bodhisattva]

You guys are really missing a major point here. You are not going to head into the eye of the storm and come out unscathed. A little guy (like myself being only 5'8" and having no muscle mass) cannot defeat a larger attacker by wrestling with his mass.

This is the key thing, you say you have no muscle mass. My buddy is by no means huge, nor is he by any means a power lifter. He benches about 200, depending on the day of the month. But with that much strength, I've seen him outwrestle guys who large, strong and skilled. He is a marvelous example of what a guy can become. He not only wins, he wins with form and ease. Time and again. He's freaky. You'd have to see it to believe it. It was beyond me.

Doing judo throws are going to get you killed. I don't care how much you think you understand about off-balancing. You aren't going to defeat him in a grappling match on the ground either (I know we're in the BJJ forum, sorry).

What if the offbalance is a nice solid jab-cross?

That's ok, no offense taken. If you've never seen the pyramids, you can't fully be awed by their size and majesty, can you? Likewise, if you've never learned to throw to the level where you can handle a guy larger than you who ALSO wrestles, then you can't dig on it being possible. I can't do it yet, myself. But I've seen a small guy wrestle big guys into the dirt - amd that's purely with wrestling/clinch/throwing skills. So I know how possible it is. Very possible. And I'm talking with freaky-big guys.

First, the ability to strike properly to offset my man. Judo off-balances are great, and the philo is sound, but you are not going to pull off someone who has their wits and who has any skill with recapturing their balance.

True and not true. Striking works better. No argument there, but a good wrestler can off-balance you as he desires - to just assume a wrestler can't take a man down. "off balance" is purely a judo term. In wrestling it's just called "takedowns". Judo is a bit too surgical in their descriptions. A leg trip is a leg trip. A good wrestler doesn't have to hit you to take you down - he'll punish you, and he'll learn to hit you on his own after the rules allow it.

[Hikage]

Ok, you have some good points here ...

Starting with your buddy. First of all, when I say I have no muscle mass, I really mean it. You said he can bench 200 (give or take). I can bench maybe 75 - 100. Never been much of a weight lifter. I tried it for a little while in college until a mistake on my part led to my spotter, roomate, and friend losing a finger. (long story). I imagine that your friend doesn't use techniques in the same manner as those who are larger than him. I would be willing to bet that if you asked him, he would tell you that he applies his techniques a little differently on different people, depending on body size. Furthermore, I would also be willing to bet that he reserves some techniques for larger opponents and also holds back others understanding that different body types require a different strategy.

Judo:
I haven't taken judo, fine. But I had studied with a buddy of mine who is a 2nd degree in judo. Also, I spent some time studying sambo, which is basically the Russian equivalent to judo. They have some nice things, but it is a sport art, not a combat art.

As for offbalancing:
The terminology for offbalancing is irrelevant. I don't care who says what. The key is understanding that you are not going to get the man down until he is offbalance. Your jab-cross could be effective if applied correctly and accurately. I prefer a similar technique. As far a grappling, there are easier, and more brutal, ways to take down a larger opponent than clashing with him like two bulls. If you were going to derail a freight train, which would be easier:

1 - Place a large object in the way (larger than a semi, we've all seen the video of what happens to a truck vs. train)
2 - Move one of the rails

You could take him down with a double leg takedown, sure, but then you're showing a lack of undersanding in the way of centerline and base of power and placing yourself at a dissadvantage. Once you take him down, now you are entangled with him and you have to figure out what to do with him. In wrestling, the match is over when someone is pinned. In combat, the fight is over when someone else isn't moving.

When you seperate one of the 5 points of balance, you can remain standing while you apply the lock. I don't know about you, but I have a lot more confidence when I'm looking down at my man, rather than into his eyes. Attack the rails, not the freight train.

-Hikage

[Tant01]

You guys are really missing a major point here. .... A little guy (like myself being only 5'8" and having no muscle mass) cannot defeat a larger attacker by wrestling with his mass.
Doing judo throws are going to get you killed. I don't care how much you think you understand about off-balancing. You aren't going to defeat him in a grappling match on the ground either (I know we're in the BJJ forum, sorry).

Frequenty, our school is contracted to help with the training of members of the "3 B world" as I call it: Body Guards, Bouncers, and Bounty Hunters. These dudes we work with are routinely well over 6 feet and weigh (usually) over 250lbs. They are the kind of student who demand that you "do that on me" and expect that you are going to have to put the technique on them while they are resisting, as one of their opponents would resist against them.

I am commonly called on to assist in their instruction, being the senior student in the class and have had many of them on the floor. If I were to attack their mass, I would be embarrassed very quickly.

-Hikage

Who's missing what?

While it is true that modern olympic style Judo lacks atemi to set up a throw with strikes that is not the case with traditional Kodokan Judo.

EVERY body gaurd, bouncer and bounty hunter I have ever met or talked with can do Osoto Gari. A double leg takedown, while primitive compared to other judo techniques is still effective Te waza. (Judo)

Same with a wristlock comealong, same with a naked choke and same with a bent arm bar. It's all JUDO. Throwing is good fun especially when you get to play it on the big guys!

AITE-NO-TSUKURI
Conditioning of your opponent or partner. This is the preparing or setting up of your opponent in order to execute your technique so that it is most effective. Once you have got him in the most advantageous position for you, you then execute your technique.

I don't care if you're a boxer, wrestler, kempo karate or any MMA this setting up of your techniques or "transitions into superior positions" against resisting opponents is what sparring, rolling, playing, or Randori are all about.

Going head to head with a freight train is a bad idea but as you point out derailing that train is easy and it will destroy itself with it's OWN MASS and MOMENTUM... It doesn't take a semi tractor trailer on the tracks to do it, just a wrench in the works or a missing few inches of track will do.

Judo works... Not everyone knows how to make it work outside the club or academy but that doesn't mean that "Judo" will get them killed. Same with any other Martial art. It's the man using it, not the style.

[Tom Yum]

Going head to head with a freight train is a bad idea but as you point out derailing that train is easy and it will destroy itself with it's OWN MASS and MOMENTUM... It doesn't take a semi tractor trailer on the tracks to do it, just a wrench in the works or a missing few inches of track will do.

Therein lies the beauty of balance and leverage in all grappling. Nicely put.

[Levi_athan]

To Mago Negro

Hey uh, this is to Mago Negro, in which I'm going to answer your ORIGINAL question on how to roll with a bigger guy.

What I would do, personally, is get into a clinch position with him. Okay, clinch him, and push him. Naturally, he'd try pushing back but it doesn't matter whether he pushes or pulls, it's just to get a little momentum going. As he's pulling or pushing, jump up and execute your guard in the air. Speed is the key here. So, as you jump and execute the guard, pull him down with you. From there, you can execute the triangle or armbar or whatever you like. It works for me real good when I'm wrestling with some of the bigger guys that I can't do a single or double leg takedown on.

Also, I've found that the ankle pick in wrestling is pretty effective as well, but since you're going against a fellow BJJ stylist or whatever, I guess it'd be pretty hard to pull that off but you should still give it a try. I mean hey, he might not expect a wrestling move in a jujitsu match, eh?

Anyways, good luck with that. Hope it helps.

[Tom Yum]

Naturally, he'd try pushing back but it doesn't matter whether he pushes or pulls, it's just to get a little momentum going. As he's pulling or pushing, jump up and execute your guard in the air.

Jumping guard is allright I, but there are other moves you can do when you are locked up and the big guy is bulldozing you....

[Tant01]

Hey uh, this is to Mago Negro, in which I'm going to answer your ORIGINAL question on how to roll with a bigger guy.

What I would do, personally, is get into a clinch position with him. Okay, clinch him, and push him. Naturally, he'd try pushing back but it doesn't matter whether he pushes or pulls, it's just to get a little momentum going. As he's pulling or pushing, jump up and execute your guard in the air. Speed is the key here. So, as you jump and execute the guard, pull him down with you.....
...It works for me real good when I'm wrestling with some of the bigger guys that I can't do a single or double leg takedown on.


Anyways, good luck with that. Hope it helps.

That might work to catch a train but I don't want to be on board when it crashes to the ground....

[Hikage]

Who's missing what?

While it is true that modern olympic style Judo lacks atemi to set up a throw with strikes that is not the case with traditional Kodokan Judo.

Same with a wristlock comealong, same with a naked choke and same with a bent arm bar. It's all JUDO. Throwing is good fun especially when you get to play it on the big guys!

I have no problem with any of this or most else you said today. Rather, I feel that you have some very strong points. Also, I should have made myself clear when I referred to Judo. I was referring to Judo as it is practiced in the Olympics, not the traditional judo in which, you are correct, proper self-defense technique is indeed instructed.

My only issue is with the following statement:

EVERY body gaurd, bouncer and bounty hunter I have ever met or talked with can do Osoto Gari. A double leg takedown, while primitive compared to other judo techniques is still effective Te waza. (Judo)

I think you missunderstood me. I wasn't implying that the "3 B group" cannot perform a double leg take down. You are right, many rely on techniques like these and are very successful. I was implying that for a little guy to perform this technique ON a man of such stature would not be advantageous.

-Hikage

[Tant01]

...are you really suggesting that a little guy not only go to the ground with a bigger stronger guy, but that he should do it by leaping to the guard?
... And doing it with a bigger, stronger guy on top in the age of the ground and pound is suicidal. .... I have to recommend a knife.

Now you're talking!

To be honest much of the "info", advise and suggestions here are ridiculous, not just this thread, board or forum but overall the BS there are some who have a clue.

I was laughing by the end of his (Levi...s) first sentence. Just visualizing myself @ 145# trying to get in a "clinch" with my cousin "Tiny" a 350+ pound guy with boxing and wrestling skills not to mention his height and strength advantage...

Yeah, jump on and TRY to wrap your legs around that... AND you're going to "pull" him down with you? Bad idea... I predict concussions, fractures and other internal injuries.

[Levi_athan]

Heh, thanks Tanto, I'm glad you got a kick out of my first sentence.

But even sparring with your Tiny cousin, regardless of whether you do the flying guard or not, how will you beat him? I'm all ears. I'm guessing you can't beat him, right? If you can, share with us your secret.

Okay, regardless of where you are, you're going to still have to take "the train" down, either way, regardless. I mean, you can't win every battle you're in. Yes, hitting the concrete with a flying guard "hurts", so if you can't take the pain, don't do it. By the way, I thought Negro was asking how to "wrestle with bigger guys" and not "streetfighting with him?" I don't know, sorry I only skimmed through everyone's replies. But hey, I'm still willing to do it even on the streets because after a while, you build an endurance to it even on the mats. If it's a street fight ordeal, then I would probably use a striking technique first to stun him or at least distract him so I can get a joint-lock or something on him. But this is all MY personal experience, what works for me might not work for you.

Who knows? Maybe Mago Negro's guard is good. Maybe his guard is like Rickson Gracie's or something, which owns Jean-Jaques Machados'. So stay positive.

[Tant01]

Heh, thanks Tanto, I'm glad you got a kick out of my first sentence.
But even sparring with your Tiny cousin, regardless of whether you do the flying guard or not, how will you beat him? I'm all ears. I'm guessing you can't beat him, right? If you can, share with us your secret.

....

Sure I could, I think a .44 Magnum would do the trick! He outweighs me by more than 200 pounds. He's 6-3, I'm 5-8.... I'm gonna get in a clinch with this monster? Not my first choice. I just thought the picture in my mind was hilarious. His weakest link? Knees. We were just horsing around and I'll tell ya, under a 350 + pound guy is the last place I want to be when he falls down. I've gotten him with the three throws I listed earlier, and other techniques (including single and double leg takedowns) made him scream "Uncle" once with a cross armlock (Ude Hishigi Juji Gatame). He can be choked out... For the street tactics he has all the same soft targets as any other thin skinned two legged beasty. He bleeds.
He likes to hurt me too much to play that way very often... The biggest difficulty is that he can curl my body weight with one arm and he likes to pile drive his victims into terrain...I give me about three chances in twenty of surviving unarmed against him in a real fight. That's why I'm so rarely unarmed... Judo is good fun and it works but ya gotta know your limits.

[HtTKar]

You dont need weapons to beat larger opponents, though they help. With him being 5"7" almost everyones going to be a larger opponent, he has to learn to use his size to his advantage. A lot of people have problems fighting smaller people too.

Every size has its advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion it goes like this;
5'10" is the perfect height for a mixture of speed and power. This is the perfect height for a fighter.
Anyone under 5'10" gives up power, but gains agility.
Anyone over 5'10" loses agility, but gains power.

Of course there are exceptions, but that's my general opinion anyways.

Growing up with my cousins and friends, we were always fighting each other, mostly for fun. All of my male cousins are over 6'2" and I'm only 5'8", so I'm at a size disadvantage. But I'd pick them apart. Work the knees, the forearms, wristbones, fists, and back to the knees again. Get them pissed off enough to charge and use their momentum against them. I'm not the best grappler but I'm squirrelly and can get off the ground quick, and I'm flexible enough to not get caught in a lot of holds. Of course once you create an oppening attack fearlessley and relentlessly. You're going to get hurt anyways so you might as well get it over with. Be light on your feet, wear them down, and when they show a sign of weakness turn on them.

I have found ways to use my smaller size to my advantage. For example, a lot of people have problems finding my range, and distancing. I can get inside someones range and still move around. If I make myself appear smaller than I am, when I stand all the way up I can reach right over most peoples guards.
A lot of people have a hard time throwing power shots at a downward angle. I am quicker and have more endurance than most, and will sometimes just wear them out. Also the bigger you are....the harder you can be hit. A smaller guy moves when he gets hit. A large guy stands still, and his body absorbs the full impact.

Like I said, I'm not much of a grappler, but If I were to just wrestle with a bigger guy. First I would try to get a hold of one of their arms, keep them off balance and try to use their arm to pull them forward. I know thats not as easy as it sounds, but nothings easy.

Remember a Pitbul is only a medium sized dog. But their agility, intelligence, fearlessness, and courage make them the baddest fighting dogs to ever to walk this planet. You have to learn to use the gifts you were given.

[Tom Yum]

If I make myself appear smaller than I am, when I stand...

Hey, I'm no fan of cold water either...

[Tom Yum]

How 'bout running away? That's a great option.