Originally posted by Tant01
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What do you think about Sambo The Russian Martial Art
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the "old" judo u refer to is kosen judo....which was taught to the gracies and then modified, to the naked eye it dose not seem to look different but if your a smaller guy u can tell the difference when sparring or fighting....also bjj got all the recognition because they actually fought challenge matches which were forbidded by kano so in essence if u look at it today that lead to basically the downfall of kosen judo, Kano realized that ground grappling was dominant in judo so he changed the rules to make it to the olympics..he thought throw were more exciting then groundfighting and that killed kosen which was 90% ground.Kosen n bjj have basically the same set ups n techniques though.
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Originally posted by JkD187the "old" judo u refer to is kosen judo....which was taught to the gracies and then modified, to the naked eye it dose not seem to look different but if your a smaller guy u can tell the difference when sparring or fighting....also bjj got all the recognition because they actually fought challenge matches which were forbidded by kano so in essence if u look at it today that lead to basically the downfall of kosen judo, Kano realized that ground grappling was dominant in judo so he changed the rules to make it to the olympics..he thought throw were more exciting then groundfighting and that killed kosen which was 90% ground.Kosen n bjj have basically the same set ups n techniques though.
Hi JKD - I just to clarify what you wrote:
1. People have to stop saying that BJJ was modified for a smaller man..maeda was small, Kano was small as well only about 5'2"-5'3" himself. Helio made little to no changes in Kano’s techniques as taught by maeda
2. GJJ did not become famous because of challenge matches it became famous from the UFC. The history of the challenge matches was a bonus for marketing. Actually if you look at the history the Gracies were in danger of closing there door as business declined. obviously it survived but it split the family
3. Kano believed in Throws of kito-ryu jujutsu but not for the crowd. The reason Kano removed large portions of ne waza was because the ne waza was boring to the crowds and matches would take a long time
danfaggella - asTanto stated it is not Kimura rather Ude Garami. Kimura was a master Judoka. Ude Garami is called "Kimura by BJJ players because that was the technique the Judoka Kimura used to beat Helio.
History question for the day: Who taught Kimura the Judoka Ude Garami?
A. Helio Gracie
B. Mas Oyama
c.Bruce Lee
D. Jigoro Kano
E. none of the above
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i meant small as in weight helio was barley 135lbs media was heavier..why do u think the ufc started? because rorion felt the gracie family had gained a huge rep from these challenges so he wanted to test it on a national level and thus the ufc was born...also yuki nakai is a kosen judo blackbelt but after his defeat to rickson he started to learn learn bjj and is now a blackbelt....now im no expert and neither are you but id say that yuki felt there was something about bjj which kosen judo did not possess.You need to read what i wrote more closely i said kosen n bjj have the same set ups n techniques but the differene is in leverage and slight little position changes..like i said to the naked eye you would never see the difference but you will certainly notice when you spar a bjj blue through black belt.I mean no disrespect if i seem to come off like n a hole im just a little blunt.
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Hi JKD - no need to apologize we are just discussing, but it is good to see there are some that can discuss, debate or disagree and still shake hands at the end.
I don't want to jack the thread anymore than I have so we might resume on another thread but I understand your points but I would say the following:
My point about the UFC was the issue of popularity. The Gracies and the challenge was barely known outside Brasil the craze started not due to the challenge matches but because the UFC made the world aware of BJJ. If there never were challenge matches GJJ would probably be just as popular. The original UFC was a marketing for the Gracie BJJ it wasn't just to test per se they wanted to market the style (which some people may bash but it was brilliant and history proved that), I know that may sound like semantics but it is not. We know anything can happen, but the expectation was Royce was not going to loose.
Your are correct I am no expert and do not claim to be as I have not formally studied bjj, but I have done some research. I may have missed the essence of your point because I agree there were advancements they just were not is actual technique, but philosophy which is where I think people get confused (generally speaking) ther is alot of credit that Helio and Carlos deserve, but there is also alot they are they credited with which is simply incorrect and he would even agree is incorrect
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IPON, yeah i know that the technique has that nickname because of the great judoka, but I dont think the credit of the move should be given to Kano, he pulled it from some old school of jiu jitsu like everything else in judo, which is fine, i love that fact that he combined so many things. however, he surely shouldn't get credit for coming up with it, neither should kimura himself, with all due respect to the both of them of course.
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Helio... WHO?
Originally posted by danfaggellaIPON, yeah i know that the technique has that nickname because of the great judoka, but I dont think the credit of the move should be given to Kano...., he surely shouldn't get credit for coming up with it, neither should kimura himself, with all due respect to the both of them of course.
We know that Masahiko Kimura was a Judoka and he called it Udegarami
That is good enough for me...
"While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami."
Masahiko Kimura >>>MY JUDO
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well yeah, obviously he didnt name it after himself, it was an old move, and his name was attatched to it after his use of it against helio. thats not my point, im not saying what to call it, either works i suppose, while calling it kimura is less traditional it is common and surely isnt blasphemous or anything. I'm just saying Kano shouldnt get credit for the technique himself, whoever named it/had it named after them ect ect does not necissarily take credit for the move coming about in the first place, and again, with all due respect to Kano/Kimura in all thier greatness, niether of them "invvented" or "realized" this move, they may have used it/incorperated it in thier system/ect...
the old guy who came up with it in some old school of jiu jitsu should get the "credit" of coming up with it, though Kimura himself can have some credit for using it effectively.
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