I predicted this reversion three years ago

[John Bennett]

Probably none of you remember, but three years ago I predicted that eventually the traditional matial artists and the whole fighting sports community would revert to the pre-UFC conventional wisdom of the one-punch-knock out and "I can't be taken down".

Many of you guys said that would never happen. You said that the lessons were learned, the arts had evolved, and the necessity of groundfighting had been established as fact.

I admit that I'm getting some satisfaction as of late from seeing these posts about how boxers can consistantly execute the fabled one-punch-knockout and how traditional martial artists don't need to learn groundfighting because you shouldn't go there in the street.

I just have to say I TOLD YOU SO.

I told you it would happen and it is.

But in the grand scheme of things this is a good development. Five years ago we all bemoaned the fact that good grappling instruction was lacking in most of this country and usually only available in one of the top 10 metro areas.

Now grappling oriented clubs are seeded throught the country. Almost everyone of us can find a good club within an hour's drive.

No more need to convert the naysayers. Let them continue on their road of blissfully ignorant self-indulgence.

It's to our benefit. The less people who know how to grapple = the better for the people who do.

[Tony10]

Right on.

[Mr. Miyagi]

The world never reverted. Most people simply don't know about grappling importance and when you open up your yellow pages you see lots of ads for karate and tae kwon do memberships with free gyms, showers, 10 black belt instructors, family friendly ads, etc. Never mind that dinky address of the bjj school on the list, which probably has poor facilities and what the hell is brazilian juijitsu anyway? Most people have never heard of Royce and Rickson but they all know Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Michelle Yeah(!), and the others in the movie gang. Let's face it, most people didn't watch the UFC and are not interested in it.

[bobby_steeles]

michelle yeoh is in the phone book?

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

IF she does, she just found herself another student!

[Mickey Finn]

First off, a one punch KO in a street fight is hardly a myth. I’ve seen that go down a number of times. The bare-knuckle sucker punch is a fight ender.

The main changes I see from three years ago are these:

3 years ago striking had NO respect. Now more people realize you need it to be a complete package. Three years ago if you were a grappler with 6 months of training on your knees, you were invincible. Anyone who is now claiming they can’t be taken down is every bit as deluded.

Another change I have observed in a lot of my local schools are places that previously ONLY taught a “traditional” stand up art are now buying mats and hiring BJJ Blue Belts to come in and teach. They believe that going to the ground intentionally in a street fight is a mistake, but shit happens and if you wind up there you better know how to deal with it. IMO that ain’t so far off the mark. Maybe my area is an exception, but I see EVERYONE ramping up on grappling rather than the reverse.

I guess BJJ Bo aerobics classes can’t be too far behind now.

[PassiveGuy]

Americans just don't understand what it takes to win a real fight. They think that a flying, spinning, double leg cresant kick is what it takes to stop those 350 lbs. football players right in there tracks when they make fun of yer "Star Trek deep space 9" t-shirt. It's all crap, american soccer moms wanna heep there babies safe from the big bullies so they take them to learn the mysterious and deadly TAE KWON DO!!! Taught by a real BLACKBELT who as far as you know dodges bullets and floats a foot above the ground! Grappling is a real no bull shit self defence art, of coarse most people of any style would get hurt by Tyson, so what. The chances of you fighting someone like that unless yer reaaal stupid are almost 0. Truth is Tank and tyson and the likes probably wouldn't get in a street fight unless you seriosly, seriosly provoked them. Why? because they have nothing to prove.

keep it up

[Mad Dog]

JB, you are so right!!! Passive Guy, do you really think it would take much to provoke Tyson? He's a diagnosed psycho with a history of beating up women and old men, not to mention anyone else stupid enough to get in his way. If he did it against a street-experienced skilled grappler he would have his ass handed to him, however.

[PassiveGuy]

Old men and women??????????????????? That's scarry! I knew he had troubles with his women but I didn't know he beat them. Lewis will hurt 'm.


keep it fresh PassIve

[Maxximus]

Mickey Finn is right...

No one has "reverted" at all. Those who have always been ignorant simply remain ignorant. Everyone else is simply getting smarter. During the early UFC days, pure grapplers thought they were untouchable. Any guy wearing a Gracie T shirt thought he was a real bada$$. It was really pretty funny (and sad at the same time). For a period of time, the importance of good striking tools was being ignored. I don't see anyone forgetting the importance of grappling knowledge right now. People are simply realizing the importance of crosstraining in striking AND grappling and/or realizing the limitations or weaknesses of a pure grappling game.

BTW, one punch knockouts do happen in streetfights.

[John Bennett]

The knockout is NOT what a whole martial arts system should be based on, but many people do just that.

You guys are confusing the very small MMA world with the millions of traditional martial artists out there. That's what I was talking about. That's where the reversion has occured.

It's true that in the mid 90's many strip-mall MA schools tried to incorporate grappling into their programs. What they found out was that grappling decreased their enrollment and upset their rank structure.

They quickly found excuses to minimize or get rid of it altogether. The excuses they found to work best are the one's we're seeing expressed here and elsewhere lately.

Even if 90% of the McTKD students you meet have never heard of "brazillion jujitsu" or "sumission wrasslin", 99% of their instructors have and have memorized knee-jerk responses for discounting it.

Let me say again that this is good for us in the grand scheme of things.


[Edited by John Bennett on 01-03-2001 at 09:18 AM]

[duchman]

John Bennnet,
You have mail~!

[darkyellowsky]

You do need to crosstrain!

I am a person that has a lot more experience in grappling than in striking, but because I have been in many street, school, and club fights I see the importance of being a well-rounded fighter and I believe a person would be more at an advantage if they were an excellent striker, but that is my opinion from being in so many fights. I believe Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is great, but not as affective in a real streetfight, as somebody that is well-rounded. I have seen many kids with their Gracie Jiu-Jitsu shirts on and I honestly think they wear these so they can go around with people thinking their invicible. You know 7 years ago when UFC debuted I saw Royce kicking everybodies ass with GJJ, and I thought like many other kids it is by far the best martial art to be in. But back then when I was really inexperinced in streetfights, I didn't think about how in UFC fights there is only one person to worry about, how your in an octagon with a padded floor, how there is a ref just incase somebody gets too hurt, in this enviroment grappling is the most affective martial art, but people get into martial arts to learn self-defense on the streets, not how to win a fight in an ideal enviroment. You know somebody should should start filming real fights and then people can document what the most affective fighting style is to use. In the streets it is not about winning and losing, it is about surviving. It has been said before and I will say it again. 90% of all fights end up on the ground, but 100% start on your feet.

[Mickey Finn]

John, we are obviously in different geographical areas so that may account for some of the perceived differences. In my neck of the woods you can’t throw a rock without hitting a Kenpo Dojo. If the rock bounces it will probably hit a TKD studio. Almost all the Kenpo places now have a grappling night. It’s optional, so you don’t have to do it to keep your belt of the month thing going. Anyone who doesn’t want to roll doesn’t have to. I have seen two traditional Japanese style Karate Dojos in the area do the same thing, along with a TSD school. (The TKD schools are still pretty much hopping around on one foot throwing head high kicks and no punches of consequence) It doesn’t affect their membership or screw up their ranking hierarchy because once again they run it as an option. If anything it has served to pull some people like me into their school to pick up a grappling class here and there. The grappling instruction is no doubt inferior to what you would get at a BJJ school, but it’s a start.

Perhaps from a pure grapplers perspective it feels like there has been a swing back to the anti grappling days because we have come back down a bit from the grapplers are invincible days. Pure grapplers with a few months training were under the impression that they were unbeatable in the 90’s, now they are hearing they need to learn striking to be complete and some of them don’t like it. It’s a comedown.

[Mad Dog]

Hey Passiveguy

I hope you are right about Lewis beating Tyson. I truly feel at this point in Tyson's career all Tyson has is a punchers chance. I would definitely pick Lewis.