So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[shaolin-warrior]

Bravo!!!
BJJ fans and practicioners beware..although it takes a well conditioned athlete like randy couture or chuck liddel to become a professional ring fighter, and many hard hours on the mats and in the gym, the are little more than pro wrestlers in a very tough pro sports forum. I wouldnt want to step into the ring with them, but wouldnt run from them in the parking lot of wallmart if they tried to take my keys......

[Sensei Saki]

Thank you very much.
The Program E chat robot can follow many things, like our discussion about BJJ fans and practicioners beware. Try being more or less specific.Oh. "It" being what?No one says you have to.

[jubaji]

Another member of the church of eye-poke nibbler

I believe in one on one fights with no weapons and no biting or eye gouges that BJJ is very formidable. Especially on a soft surface like a mat or on the beach. But in the real world, there are no fair fights. There are no referees. And the time limits are who's friends get there first to help. People will bite you and try and dig your eyes out in a real fight. There definitely will be weapons. But you are correct when you say that it is easy to adopt into other styles that train realistically. However, as I said, the progressive systems are beginning to offer "anti-grappling", meaning that they teach you to defend against techniques that lead to ground bouts. They put a great deal of value on being on your feet, as will most of the arts in a couple of years. Its already started. EBMAS is already offering anti-grappling, because they say as I have said here that fighting on the ground should be a fight to get back to your feet. Krav Maga offers anti-grappling. As does many, many other reality-based MA systems that most of you never heard of because they don't appear frequently in Black Belt magazine.
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Could I just add................................ ?

[XavierFrost]

This is ridiculous. So ridiculous that I actually decided to make this my first post on the message boards. Uke: I feel very sorry for you. Not sorry because I feel that BJJ is the end all be all of all martial arts, or because I am trying to take some kind of agenda and support it, defiantly arguing my points against any kind of rational criticsm or hint of intellectual discussion. Your arguement style is that of an angry teenager. Now, you say that you've studied for at least 20 years, so I am guessing that you are well beyond that age, and this is why I feel sorry for you. Let me explain why, because I am sure that if i did not you'd quip I was baselessly attacking you because I am "insecure" as you called a few other posters after their choice use of some emoticons. You have an arguementative style that is based solely on circuitous rhetoric, where you present a situation that absolutely no one would be able to survive (the football field "experiment", just so we are on the same page). I think that the poster who gave you an academic schooling on the concept of research did a very good job explaining to you that your arguemnt in this case was quite flawed. I'll give you an experiment of my own, and we'll see how you stack up.
You think swimming is an effective means of getting yourself out of water? All swimmers are trained to at some point get into an aqueous (that means water) area and at some later point get out. but its not the best way, and they are stupid for thinking they can really get out of the water, thereby saving themselves from eventual tiring and drowing! There is a really hungry shark in the body of water, and our unfortunate swimmer (who thinks he's very good by the way- he may even be, we'll say he's an Olympian in the 200 meter free) is placed in this body of water with a cut on his arm. Not enough to impede his form, but enough to attract the shark. when he enters the water, he tries to swim to the edge and get out as hes trained to do so often, but the shark senses the blood and attacks. oh, and his two shark friends at the other end of the water body sense it too and come to enjoy the buffet. too bad he thought he was training in an effective manner.
Do you see where I'm going with this? I'll explain it in case the meaning is jumping over you. any of us can come up with a whole number of situations where the outcome represents exactly what we want it to. ever hear the phrase "never trust statistics"? its because the data can be shaped to support a whole number of different conclusions, and all you have to do is choose which one you like. You say BJJ is terrible for street self defense because people can have a knife or other weapon, and a BJJ'er wouldnt know how to use his hands effectively to strike. He would try to go to the ground and be hacked to bits. This is just one of your many statements (i'm paraphrasing by the way, i dont really feel like taking the time to sort through the amazing amount of useless verbiage in your posts to qoute you). Well, BJJ, as others have mentioned, trains in an environment where you spar against a resisting opponent, and frankly I think any layman to martial arts would probably say thats a pretty good way to train for a real fight, for one. Secondly, trying to use the UFC, Pride FC, King of the Cage, or any other MMA event to judge BJJ's effectiveness on the street is naive, the same as it would be to compare judo's or a number of other arts. those people are what we call "professional" fighters: it is their job to fight, and that is how they make their living. Most people on the street that you will run into will have substantially less experience in terms of fighting a resisting opponent. I can't believe this fact has escaped you. Oh wait, yes, I can, because I am remembering my angry teenager comment. And it is making me chuckle as I am writing my explanation for it. I wonder if you have any teenage children? Do they pick pointless arguements to test you, just to see where the boundaries are? Do they exhibit a stubbornness in their beliefs and a refusal to accept any kind of criticism or opinion when it contradicts their own, making them consider other people's lives and perspectives. If you had them, you would most likely say yes. This is exactly what you are doing, argueing in this manner and tryng to pass yourself off as someone interested in an open and honest "debate". Here's a tip, and it extends past the MMA world: dont try to play with the big boys if you dont have the candle power (By the way, I'm saying that you dont, and yes that is a mild attack, take it as you will).
So look, take your "arguements", "experiments", and whatever else you bring and please leave. This thread was enough to make me sign up just to get it to stop so that others could actually discuss things that were going somewhere. The way you started this "discussion" left it no where to really go, as you pigeon-hold and forced it to go in a particular direction. I wouldnt want to fight anyone with a knife unless i had one, or had a gun. how's that? am i being a BJJ homer? I dont think so. So go learn up, maybe read through this post twice since I'm sure you didnt grasp it all the first time, and hopefully you'll examine yourself and see you've got some growing up to do, and there's some life lesson stuff you should focus on outside of martial arts. You're welcome.

Frost

[XavierFrost]

Oh, and by the way, I personally know Relson Gracie. I have driven him through the states when he has come in from Hawaii. I have spent a good deal of time around him. He has stayed at my home before. And he would never say what you have qouted him as saying. I know this because I asked him (personally, face to face) about his beliefs on different fighting systems. Right or wrong, he believes his form of Gracie jiu-jitsu to be the best and most effectice form of self-defense and fighting. This is why he has been training his son Ralen in his style to compete at the Arnold's in march, believing that Ralen will show the world the effectiveness of jiu jitsu. Whether or not what he believes is true, your statements regarding him are wrong. I thought that everyone here should know.

Frost

[Uke]

For those of you who still believe that BJJ looks different in the school and in the street, I have the material you need to review the best doing what they do. Let's see what excuses you have for not watching.

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=18779&cat=&page=

Not only have some of you avoided trying a simple, inconsequential exercise because it may change your opinions, but some of you will avoid watching BJJ's best fighters confirm what I've written because it may shake your faith.

How embarrassing.

[BoarSpear]

what if i dont wanna give the gracies 49.95?? and i dont actually just go to the gracie site and you can watch clips that make your point for free...

http://24.24.221.72/multimedia/inaction1vid.shtml

[BoarSpear]

You think swimming is an effective means of getting yourself out of water? All swimmers are trained to at some point get into an aqueous (that means water) area and at some later point get out. but its not the best way, and they are stupid for thinking they can really get out of the water, thereby saving themselves from eventual tiring and drowing.

uh how would you suggest moving through the water? Other than by mechanical means or catching a ride on a sea creature swimming is your ONLY option...however there are plenty of other ways to defend yourself than bjj.

Also try grabbing the ladder and pulling yourself out of pools...swimming up ladders doesnt work very well and when at the beach, put your feet down and walk out of the ocean if you swim up to the beach youre gonna bottom out in the surf and get sand in your shorts

in other words your brilliant analogy, wasnt.

[Uke]

XavierFrost

I have read through your entire post, and aside from you accusing me of having an agenda, and me somehow behaving like an angry teenage, you have offered nothing more than rantings. And that's not even meant to be an insult. I've tried to sift through it, and it seems like an angry, enthusiastic criticism of the posts, not the facts in them.

At any rate, watch the tapes. My points are all made by watching the tapes. Watch as BJJ finest all have the same answer to attacks. Watch and see how BJJ's finest charge in over large distances, allowing a man to reach for whatever. Its all on the fight footage. Watch how even out the ring BJJ doesn't "switch over" to street mode, as their approach outside is identical to their approach on the mat. Listening to BJJ novices on a forum and watching BJJ icons are 2 different experiences. As they say, learn from the best, not from who try and speak for them.

Get it here:

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=18779&cat=&page=

And please, don't tell me that because you've eaten with Relson Gracie that you know what he would and wouldn't say. You may be an authority on what you do, but you are hardly an authority on any man and his thoughts. You can't assure me of anything, because you have no knowledge of what you speak. During my time in Hawaii, I wasn't even aware of the Inoue brothers until Relson told us about them. So stick to what you do, and not to what you have no idea about.

[Uke]

what if i dont wanna give the gracies 49.95?? and i dont actually just go to the gracie site and you can watch clips that make your point for free...

http://24.24.221.72/multimedia/inaction1vid.shtml

Thanks for your comments, BoarSpear.

And thank you for making it even EASIER for these people to watch their masters prove my points. They have no excuses now. But they'll make them up anyway.

[JkD187]

here we go again....bjj is the most efficient art to be used on the ground period, it's been proven over and over again in that regard, however the issue is on the street.If you really want to be at your best in a street fight you gotta be prepared for everything standup/clinch/ground,and you gotta drill everything till you get it down and then add progressive resistance and then you gotta spar like crazy to get your techniques and make them yours to access whenever you need.On the street it is true that you dont wanna go down, but who ever said because you do bjj you gotta go down everytime?,always try to avoid the fight and if you cant engage and end it its as simple as that be agressive and hit him as fast and hard as u can,if he tries to grab u hit him with elbows and knees (espically to the sac) or toss his fuckin ass n pound him out or break his bones.i think you watch to much mma you gotta realize people on the street dont give you a challenge at all, i weigh 200lbs and i grappled this guy who was 295 and i hip tossed his ass and tapped him out wit a rnc in less then 30 sec so yea if that's not effective i dont know what is.It dose not matter what art or arts you study as long as you train them against a resising opponent, however bjj is the most effective based on actual fight footage and u cant argue with facts but again that for competition not the street any artd will work that combine grappling and striking and just add the dirty stuff its all very simple,and as for weapons....RUN and if you cant run pick up somethin and throw it at him then run shit.

[JkD187]

as far as for you uke i think you are correct in what you are saying,bjj Alone will not do you the greatest of good and that you must cross train if your training for self defense.Its as simple as that if your not cross training you woulnt reach your potential when it comes to handling yourself when shit gets rough.Guys you gotta remember bjj is not the answer to everything,neither is muay thai or boxing or wrestling or kali or any other art you can think of.uke is not saying bjj is not effective or trying to put it down hes just saying that alone is not the answer, the answer is to cross train everything that will help you on the street.

[JkD187]

ok i just took some time and read alot of this bullshit and not just skim it and wow....this is some of the stupidist arguing i have ever heard.....do you people hear yourselfs....? i mean come on with the fuckin scenarios and shyt like that, NO sceaniro will do you any good unless you spar and spar like you will fight on the street,spar to a finish,spar to tap or ko as quick as possible dont be little bitch's get in the kitchen and cook man,this talk about this working and that working,,,well you will never know untill you try it,so if you wanna find out the truth about what works on the street you gotta spar hard and you will see what works.so i suggest everyone stops with this fuckin post "theory" shyt and try it out for yourself. END OF THE THREAD

[AlphaZeroNiner]

Uke,

What if there was a situation in which the BJJ practitioner had a position where he/she controlled the oppoents arms? Unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to invest significant time in a martial art, but I'm very interested in them. One of my friends has taken Judo for a few years and at first he was more than capable in taking me to the floor and pinning me, sometimes all I could do was flail my legs around. Now I'm pretty keen to his strategies and techniques, but in a self-defense situation whatever you do that works only needs to work against the person once right? Assuming won't repeatedly hunt you down and ambush you just have to get away/win and that'll be that. I agree completely with you that in the situation you presented nobody would escape uninjured. But how about a situation in which the BJJ person didn't have the odds stacked against them? What if the BJJ person controlled his/her opponent's arms already so the knife wouldn't come into play anyway? It seems there are quick ways to submit someone once you get control of them. Submissions are designed to do what the name says, to submit someone, but if you're not interested in giving them the opportunity to tap...

[Uke]

Jkd187

here we go again....bjj is the most efficient art to be used on the ground period, it's been proven over and over again in that regard, however the issue is on the street.If you really want to be at your best in a street fight you gotta be prepared for everything standup/clinch/ground,and you gotta drill everything till you get it down and then add progressive resistance and then you gotta spar like crazy to get your techniques and make them yours to access whenever you need.On the street it is true that you dont wanna go down, but who ever said because you do bjj you gotta go down everytime?,always try to avoid the fight and if you cant engage and end it its as simple as that be agressive and hit him as fast and hard as u can,if he tries to grab u hit him with elbows and knees (espically to the sac) or toss his fuckin ass n pound him out or break his bones.i think you watch to much mma you gotta realize people on the street dont give you a challenge at all, i weigh 200lbs and i grappled this guy who was 295 and i hip tossed his ass and tapped him out wit a rnc in less then 30 sec so yea if that's not effective i dont know what is.It dose not matter what art or arts you study as long as you train them against a resising opponent, however bjj is the most effective based on actual fight footage and u cant argue with facts but again that for competition not the street any artd will work that combine grappling and striking and just add the dirty stuff its all very simple,and as for weapons....RUN and if you cant run pick up somethin and throw it at him then run shit.

Hello again and thank you for your comments, JKD187.

I remember you. You're the guy who directed me to Matt Thornton's site the other day. You know I found out that the guy you were arguing with about grammar wasn't even a real guy. It was a program.

Anyway, I would like to point out some things. First, BJJ is not traditional jujitsu. Let's just be clear about that now. While all of BJJ's techniques come from traditional jujitsu, its approach to applying the techniques is very different. If you didn't already know, and I'm sure you do, BJJ puts emphasis on ground fighting. In 99.9% of the fights you watch where a BJJ player is involved, no one sees the BJJ trying to stay on his feet. Now we're talking about hundreds of fights, and dozens of fighters. Nearly all of BJJ techniques come from traditional jujitsu, from the guard to the chokes. Now what some of the people here are neglecting to mention is what sets traditional jujitsu apart from BJJ: the emphasis on ne waza or ground techniques.

The instances that you may find people on this forum claiming that a BJJ player staying on his feet will be concerning fighters like Marco Ruas, and Vitor Belfort and Pedro Rizzo. All who's primary art is striking. JKD187, you seriously should watch the Gracie In Action tapes so you can see the best BJJ players confirm what I'm speaking about. Their intention is to bring you to the ground. The examples you gave above about dealing with situations were simple jujitsu techniqes, not BJJ. How often have you seen a Gracie use nage waza? And what you did by hip throwing the guy and choking him out was plain, traditional jujitsu. Plus, I hate to say this, but I don't know that many athletic 295lbs guys. I'm not saying you couldn't do the same with an athletic man, but what it sounds like to me by the example you gave is that you flipped a fat guy and choked him out.

And I've never said that BJJ wasn't effective on the ground. In fact I've been giving it praise in that its very effective on the ground. My contention is that no one in their right mind would go to the ground in a fight on the street, let alone stay there. The variables are just stacked against ANYONE on the ground, not just a BJJ man.

See, some of the more childish posters here have accused me of saying that reality based martial artists would fare better on the ground than a BJJ, which I never said or even insinuated. They try to mix and change the facts because they still have no legitimate response to the fact that no one would go to the ground if you're able to avoid it. Even you, JKD197, have stated this. I have always stated that in order to be a competent ground grappler, a study of BJJ is necessary. I've said that before this topic was ever written, and the posts are still there. I stand by my statements. My only issue was that BJJ should be learned as a means to escape from positions such as the guard and mount, and to learn how to reverse submissions and chokes. From my perspective, that's acknowledging value.

The BJJ fans in here weren't content with that, and wanted me to lie and say that BJJ is a complete system of self defense in the realm of reality encounters such as muggings, gang violence, rape prevention, bar fights, club fights, etc. Now, as a JKD man, you know like I know that in any of those situations you won't be going to the guard or the mount unless its just you and the guy with no weapons, which you could never know because most weapons are concealed. That's why JKD fighters are taught to fight like the man has a weapon, regardless if you see it right away or not. You would use the elbows, knees and punches that you wrote about above.

Now if the guy manages to tackle you, by all means use the BJJ skills to get in a superior position as soon as possible to get back on your feet. You wouldn't lay there in the street in Brownsville working for a triangle choke, especially if you're from out of town. You'd get up and try to finish the guy off before he could get back up.

But here's the million dollar question: How many BJJ players have you seen finish a fight on their feet? How many of them have the stand up skills to avoid getting knocked out if they choose to engage an opponent with strikes? The ones that do weren't BJJ players from the beginning, like Ruas and Belfort and Rizzo who use grappling skills only to "enhance", not as principle tools.

So when these BJJ fans on this site begin hooping and hollaring about "my scenarios don't make sense", and that "I'm wrong because I assume that they'll go to the ground", let them tell us how many fights they've won on their feet. And of those fights, which BJJ technique did you use to win? To think of it, how many BJJ players have any of you seen win a fight on their feet? According to Cam and pstevens, BJJ has a complete repertoire of techniques that would allow them to handle a fighter standing up. So where are the stand up victories?!?!?

If they have won a fight on their feet, 9 times out of 10 it wasn't with a BJJ technique.

But I bet the facts, examples, logic and the question of how many fights they've won on their feet and what techniques they used to win will be responded to with more rhetoric.

Again, thanks for your response JKD187, and the mature way you wrote it.