So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[Uke]

I agree with you and Uke about staying on the ground too long as a strategy. I'm just waiting to here Uke's suggestion about combat strategy.

Something else to consider, grappling is a pretty loose term. Some people train in judo, some in free-style or folk wrestling, many in BJJ and others grappling hybrids (submission wrestling, chin-na, shuai jiao, aikijitsu, sambo). Not all of these arts build their strategy around the guard; some seek to get control of an arm, maybe a leg; some seek to set up a clinch or get control of the head or hips.

You can never underestimate an expert grappler. There are instructors and competitors who can get heavier, stronger and experienced people on the ground pretty quick and pretty hard.

As you've both stated though, lots of BJJ classes train like sport BJJ.

Tom Yum, I've answered what you're asking me already. And I've answered it before this topic was created. Read the thread that the following link will take you to and read my 3 replies. And Tom Yum, the only reason my "attitude" is viewed as over-the-top is because I'm speaking about BJJ, and people here defend it like I'm questioning their faith in God, which makes it apparent that its worshipped here and not just studied. You don't see me calling names or being disrespectful to anyone unless its in response.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=16933

LoneHusky:

How does someone reply to what LoneHusky wrote? Not only did he not provide any real information, but he went totally beserk like he had Tourette's syndrome because the question arose as to why the Gracies have a camera everytime someone even bumps them in the street. Everything beyond that is computer tough talk. Men only speak like LoneHusky if A) They intend on doing something REAL about it or B) They have nothing left by way of intelligence so they act out to vent that shortcoming or C) They're getting in touch with their feminine side and we're seeing the "b!tch" in them.

Live and let live.

[LoneHusky]

Sorry I shouldn't get so emotional, I just find you to be very sarcastic and condesending sometimes. Sidenote: I am very in touch with my feminine side. C)

[BoarSpear]

Sorry I shouldn't get so emotional, I just find you to be very sarcastic and condesending sometimes. Sidenote: I am very in touch with my feminine side. C)

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[LoneHusky]

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lols *kiss*

[SamuraiGuy]

Hrmmm, I kinda agree with Uke, on some points... and on others I dont... but as to answer his question... how many BJJ guys have won fights on their feet.... I'd say from my "fights"... wouldnt realy call em fights but w/e... its about even... and I wouldnt say im a BJJ guy.

The true answer to this question lies in this fact, a purely BJJ guy would most likely not end a fight on his feet, unless it was just a lucky punch, im sure punching on your feet is part of BJJ, not that hard of a technique to figure out. The point is BJJ wants to end it on the ground so thats where they will end it.... if anything and your a BJJ guy and none of your fights have ended on your feet than your executing your style perfectly are you not.... its ending in the position yoru most dominant in.

With that said, I pose a new question.....

"How many pure boxers, or muay thai artists have won fights on the ground?"

Oh shit... I'm gonna go with probably not very many... probably the same amount that have ended with a bjj guy standing...

[rob1_bjj]

I have only read the first few pages of this thread - sorry if this has already been answered.

I tried a version of the test that Uke adviced.

I started on my back with a person in guard (who has next to no grappling experience - but heavier than me).

I grabbed both their wrists.

They then yanked one hand back to pull the knife (rubber) from their back pocket.

As they did this I grabbed their shirt with my free hand and did a scissor sweep where I rolled up on top to full mount.

I immediately used both hands to control the arm which was reaching for the knife (although they were not able to pull it when I did the sweep).

From hear I did a few light headbuts to their chin and they said 'stop'.

Not sure if this proves anything - but I made sure I only used BJJ.

[medic06]

and that's why you don't carry a knife in your back pocket.

[medic06]

OK, you pass the experiment. I just reread the first post.


I tire of this. I really like jujitsu

[rob1_bjj]

and that's why you don't carry a knife in your back pocket.

It helped that it was one of those crappy rubber training knives - a little tougher to pull out of your back pants pocket

[rob1_bjj]

I have to admit that I agree with much of what Uke posted.

I don't think he is saying that BJJ is worthless for self-defense, but that it should not be your primary focus.

He actually pointed out many of BJJ's strengths for self-defense (like escaping inferior positions and defending chokes).

I train with the SBG and there is a reason why we work standup, clinch, ground, knife defense (S.T.A.B. - which is a standup program) - Matt Thornton loves BJJ, but he still trains all the other aspects of fighting.

Chris Haueter is Matt Thorntons BJJ intructor and on one of the Red Zone video tapes (similar to S.T.A.B.) Chris tries to defend against a knife while on the ground using only BJJ (against one of his non black belt students) and has a really hard time. Chris also has out a great BJJ for street fighting tape/dvd series for those looking to modify the sport of BJJ for street application.

Just my 2 cents on this.

[Uke]

rob1_bjj

Thank you for your comments.

First, I'd like to say that you are twice the martial artist that some of these other guys are. You could have completely disagreed with my points, and I would have debated them, but I would still have respect for you because you actually went out and tried it for yourself instead of taking someone else's word that something will work. Alot of the "BJJ sheep" here have instead accused many of us of "BJJ bashing", even though we've given high praise to BJJ in terms of ground defense. All this even though in the beginning of the BJJ craze the Gracies stated that BJJ is not meant to replace, but to compliment. Go figure.

Now on to the exercise. If your friend who was heavier couldn't cut you and you reversed your position, tell him to turn up his intensity level, Rob. In this experiment we're trying to simulate the same elements that you'd face in a real altercation. There's nothing worse than trying to control a guy that's going nuts using grappling. And I mean nuts. Unless trained to fight calmly, most people won't. They can't. The adrenaline takes over and they get that "COME ON!" attitude, then they go completely nuts and will resist any attempt to restrain them.

Also, you have to motivate them. Without motivation, a training partner won't be willing to expend that much energy, as most people are lazy. But I bet if you had told him that you'd give him $20 if he could cut you, it would have been a different training exercise. You don't have to give away money, just find what will light a fire under his @ss. And to be honest with you rob1, if he were an enemy and had a real knife, he wouldn't have asked you to stop headbutting him. He would have just started stabbing. Keep in mind that because he hasn't trained and doesn't have a mindset for this kind of training, he feels unequipped from the start because he had a marker or rubber knife. In his mind, he needs something that can hurt you or at least get you off of him. Try to help him understand that without his willingness to fight like its for his life, you'll get nothing form the exercise.

Again, congratulations on being a leader and not a follower, rob1_bjj.

[SamuraiGuy]

Uke, man you still havent answered my question brother, im sure hope your not dodging it like these BJJ guys your knocking dodged your "how many fights have you won standing up"..

here it is a gain...

"How many pure Muay Thai guys, or pure boxers have won their fights on the ground?"

[medic06]

Loaded question. If you knock the guy out, does that mean it went to the ground because he fell unconscious?

[rob1_bjj]

Uke - Don't get me wrong - I only posted the 1 success I had doing the drill

I've been studying martial arts for 22 years and I have spent alot of time working on defending the knife. I've done drills like this many times before. I can say that my defense against the knife while being on the ground is much better since I have started studying BJJ (that doesn't mean I use pure BJJ when defending against the knife while on the ground - just that the skills I learned in BJJ have helped).

As for motiviting my training partners - I agree 100% and I often tell them to attack me as if I would give them $100 for everytime they stab me.

My motto has always been don't train to make me look good - just train to make me good.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy

"How many pure Muay Thai guys, or pure boxers have won their fights on the ground?"

I'm sure they've won on the ground, but not by choice. But not nearly as many as BJJ as the whole point of this thread is that stand up fighters and self defense practitioners have already realized the value of being on your feet and NOT ON THE GROUND.

Had I lied and said "They win on the ground all the time", it would defeat the entire school of thought on this thread and the fact that stand up fighters don't ever look to go to the ground. But I'm glad you brought that up, SamuraiGuy.

The reason that stand-up fighters and self defense practitioners have not put focus on ground fighting is because after centuries of wars, battles and encounters, warriors and martial artists alike have found that hand to hand on the ground means nothing when the rest of the guy's army is swarming on the battlefield, and they're all armed. And they're all looking to kill you.

So by asking "How many pure Muay Thai guys, or pure boxers have won their fights on the ground?", you've just reinforced that the majority of the world for centuries has known what I've writing on this topic. And by the way, BJJ isn't the oldest form of ground grappling. Mongolian wrestling, jujitsu, greco-roman wrestling, and judo all predate BJJ. There were experts in those fields waaaaay before Helio Gracie ever existed. But in battle, they all relied on the time tested art of weapons training and strikes.

PS Muay Thai and Boxing are sports too. That's why they have weight classes. Its common knowledge that in those sports, including kickboxing and BJJ, that when the weight of your opponent is much greater than the opponent their skills are waaaay less effective and impressive. Without the weight classes of MMA and NHB, you'd see the TRUE skill level of those athletes. That's why the FIRST 3 UFC's were as good as it was going to get.

Some say as the tournaments went on, the skill level of the opponents began getting better. That's a lie, until recently. Its just after the first couple of tournaments, every organization began instituting more rules, pads and weight classes, so we only get to see certain people fight certain people. And that doesn't showcase the effectiveness of a style. It showcases the level of athleticism and toughness of a specific fighter.

The martial world has always taken its examples from men like Morihei Ueshiba, Remy Presas, Jigoro Kano, Florendo Visitacion and Bruce Lee because they were little men who made their art work for them. They didn't say "Ok, I'll fight anybody my size". They used what they knew to deal with opponents of ALL sizes and shapes. They all trained in some form of ground grappling, but none would try to ground grapple with a man the size of Mike Tyson because they all knew that in that position, they wouldn't be able to use their most powerful tools. They were all practical men, and if they created an art for sport, they would state that and wouldn't call it a self defense or street art if it wasn't. But more than anything else, these little men were able to teach other little men to win against bigger men. And without teaching them to compromise themselves and their most effective tools by going to the ground with bigger, stronger and younger men.

Thanks for your comments, SamuraiGuy.