So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[BoarSpear]

We have cicada killer wasps that carry CICADAS !! they are agressive as hell...supposedly the males dont have stingers to back it up but they WILL dive bomb your ass....tennis rackets are the best defense

[jubaji]

The worst thing the Wasps around New England do is look down their noses at you and call the cops if you walk through their neighborhood late at night!

[BoarSpear]

The worst thing the Wasps around New England do is look down their noses at you and call the cops if you walk through their neighborhood late at night!

ROFLMAO

[Tant01]

haha... to whoever was cutting up Krav Maga... saying.. all that stuff about bashing in the face while the guy is on the ground and that, looks bad to on lookers... well.... the fact you advocate BJJ as the best for the ground cause it gives you control.. and you might not always have your "krav maga bashing skills" work... is pretty funny....

People who invented Krav Maga realized this... thats why about 90% of the Krav Maga ground work is bjj, who would have known!... not you cause you just bashed er without finding out anything about it...

point being... learn about what a style employs before arguing against it...

That would be me and I'm so pleased you are amused by my take on Krap Maga! If you knew anything about "real" KM you would know that while the newaza my LOOK like BJJ to your typical entheusiast it's actually from Judo. You see Mr. Samurai, The co-founder of military KM, Moni Aizik can trace his Judo lineage straight to Kano sensei... He trained under a Dutch instructor named Opa Schutte in Amsterdam for nine years who trained under Tokio Hirano (8th Dan) who trained directly under Kano... Imagine THAT!

[SamuraiGuy]

That would be me and I'm so pleased you are amused by my take on Krap Maga! If you knew anything about "real" KM you would know that while the newaza my LOOK like BJJ to your typical entheusiast it's actually from Judo. You see Mr. Samurai, The co-founder of military KM, Moni Aizik can trace his Judo lineage straight to Kano sensei... He trained under a Dutch instructor named Opa Schutte in Amsterdam for nine years who trained under Tokio Hirano (8th Dan) who trained directly under Kano... Imagine THAT!

Havent we already gone through the whole ... Jujitsu = Judo = Brazilian Jiu Jitsu = Judo = Jiu Jitsu thing...

BJJ is just part of Judo... the ground work of it... do you ever think the newaza the judo guy was using is what we know as bjj today.... fricking douches...

lol and ROFL about that wasp comment haha...

Oh and BoarSpear, I didnt claim KM invented the BJJ techniques... I just merely stated its incorporated... maybe the 90% was really high, im not gonna say im an authority on the subject here....

[Tant01]

Think what you like Samurai guy. You see a choke you call it BJJ. You see a bent arm lock, call it Kimura or Americana... It's all BJJ, right? The BJJ TODAY is the same shit they were taught 80 years ago. It was Judo then and it's still Judo today.

[BoarSpear]

Havent we already gone through the whole ... Jujitsu = Judo = Brazilian Jiu Jitsu = Judo = Jiu Jitsu thing...

BJJ is just part of Judo... the ground work of it... do you ever think the newaza the judo guy was using is what we know as bjj today.... fricking douches...

lol and ROFL about that wasp comment haha...

Oh and BoarSpear, I didnt claim KM invented the BJJ techniques... I just merely stated its incorporated... maybe the 90% was really high, im not gonna say im an authority on the subject here....

you missed my point, the CREATORS of the system incorporated judo into KM not bjj, people today TEACH bjj...it no longer IS what it WAS.

[EmptyneSs]

Think what you like Samurai guy. You see a choke you call it BJJ. You see a bent arm lock, call it Kimura or Americana... It's all BJJ, right? The BJJ TODAY is the same shit they were taught 80 years ago. It was Judo then and it's still Judo today.

km grappling is from judo? no wonder it lacks. yeah, bjj is from judo however it has really evolved away from judo and in my opinon surpassed it in effectiveness due to the extreme popuplarity of the art and all the talented people who brought creativy to it as well. it keeps evolving. there are now many different techniques in bjj that arent in judo. most judo blackbelts dont know triangle chokes and their escapes because judo schools simply dont teach em. they arent the same anymore.

there was a ralph gracie purple belt around here who is in prison now cause he collar choked a skinhead on the street and killed him almost instantly. the paramedics were able to revive the guy and bring him back to life. i think he nearly crushed the dudes windpipe or something. ju jitsu guys have hardcore grip strength and can put lethal crushing power into those chokes. the leverage and torque one can apply to anothers throat and neck with those chokes is rediculous. breaking peoples limbs is no joke either. and these are what bjj guys train all day and night in addition to escapes from these techniques and from bad positions. bjj isnt about going to the ground at all. we train on the ground so much in order to be able to avoid it at all costs. the mount or guard is one of the last places a ju jitsu guy wants to be. as someone already said, the whole point of ju jitsu is to stay away from the ground and make your opponent go there. to best be able to avoid it, u gotta know it the best.

however there are a few techniques ive seen performed that involving going directly to the ground that are pretty damn effective. there is this one technique very similar to the judo tomeo nage. the only difference is instead of throwing the guy u drop him straight into an arm break. ive seen purple belts be able to pull it off almost instantly so there usually isnt any struggle once they hit the ground, a tapout. ive also seen a version of that done but with triangle/armbar combo. again the holds are applied immediately while u end up on the ground almost parallel to there head and they are tapping. another really awesome technique ive seen done is catching an opponents sleave if u get foot sweeped and pulling them into a hard armbar.

[Uke]

What's the big deal if SamuraiGuy calls it BJJ or Judo? Many of the guys here use the terms interchangeably. And the truth is those techniques do not come from judo, they come from jujitsu. Kano himself did not even practice or know newaza until Mataemon Tanabe challenged Kano and his school and beat all of them. Kano persuaded Tanabe to teach the newaza aspect of his fusen ryu jujitsu to his judo students after Tanabe proved its effectiveness . So as I said, what's the big deal if SamuraiGuy calls it jujitsu or judo? He could just as easily argue that newaza isn't judo as Kano just adopted it after he got whupped out by it and called it judo later. Judo is the sport spinoff of jujitsu that removed the lethal techniques and focused on kuzushi, and BJJ is the spinoff of a spinoff(kosen) that focused on newaza.

And mpossoff, you were right. This tangent is just semantics and has nothing to do with BJJ being appropriate for the street on its own. Some of these people have clearly tried to twist what has been written here because its the only way they participate. I haven't read once where anyone wrote that BJJ doesn't have value. It has its place, but some of the sheep here just want others to lie and state that it addresses weapons, striking and fighting more than one opponent. It doesn't.

And even if KM isn't as good as it is overseas, at least they're trying to teach their students to be more prepared and effective than BJJ is despite the claims BJJ has made of being unbeatable and undefeated in 60 years. And the point in contention is that the marketing scheme neglected to mention that they're undefeated on the mat, not in the street. People here are pretending that I am stating that BJJ is worthless ONLY because they have nothing of value to offer in response, so they are forced to exaggerate and twist words.

And as much as I don't see krav maga as the best, its still many strides ahead of those who feel that getting in the ring and kickboxing and then spending sometime grappling in the guard is going to cut it as self defense.

[IPON]

it keeps evolving. there are now many different techniques in bjj that arent in judo. most judo blackbelts dont know triangle chokes and their escapes because judo schools simply dont teach em. they arent the same anymore.

Umm heard of ahi gatame jime.

http://www.hoebeke.nl/images/technieken/Verwurgingen/Sankaku-Jime.JPG

Not putting down BJJ but you would have to list some technique that is found in BJJ nthat is not already part of judo current.prewar kosen/kodokan. Again the difference is not techniques but philosophy.

study of kappo may not be a bad idea either.

[IPON]

What's the big deal if SamuraiGuy calls it BJJ or Judo? Many of the guys here use the terms interchangeably. And the truth is those techniques do not come from judo, they come from jujitsu. Kano himself did not even practice or know newaza until Mataemon Tanabe challenged Kano and his school and beat all of them. Kano persuaded Tanabe to teach the newaza aspect of his fusen ryu jujitsu to his judo students after Tanabe proved its effectiveness . So as I said, what's the big deal if SamuraiGuy calls it jujitsu or judo? He could just as easily argue that newaza isn't judo as Kano just adopted it after he got whupped out by it and called it judo later. Judo is the sport spinoff of jujitsu that removed the lethal techniques and focused on kuzushi, and BJJ is the spinoff of a spinoff(kosen) that focused on newaza.

I may have to disagree. I think there is a responsibility to demystify where possible. The reason why is mentioned so often is not to claim Judo is superior or better than bjj in ne waza. The reason is that BJJ belives incorrectly how BJJ has develed. There are other styles that have have there origin from Kano but they are not discussed. Every style is a spinoff. Well you can argue if A=B and B=C then A=C but that is simply not correct. What Maeda taught the Gracies was pre war judo there are no techniques that are "new" just philosophy which is fine. In hapkido, I don't have the misunderstanding that Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul created the locks and throws I know these are (arguably) from Daito ryu jujutsu

BJJ is despite the claims BJJ has made of being unbeatable and undefeated in 60 years. And the point in contention is that the marketing scheme neglected to mention that they're undefeated on the mat, not in the street. .

This is another untruth , bjj was defeated on the mat as well. If nothing else but the fight with the Jodoka Kimura which occured circa 1955

just my 2 cents

[Uke]

Ipon

I may have to disagree. I think there is a responsibility to demystify where possible. The reason why is mentioned so often is not to claim Judo is superior or better than bjj in ne waza. The reason is that BJJ belives incorrectly how BJJ has develed. There are other styles that have have there origin from Kano but they are not discussed. Every style is a spinoff. Well you can argue if A=B and B=C then A=C but that is simply not correct. What Maeda taught the Gracies was pre war judo there are no techniques that are "new" just philosophy which is fine. In hapkido, I don't have the misunderstanding that Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul created the locks and throws I know these are (arguably) from Daito ryu jujutsu

Good catch. I should have been more selective in how I chose my words. I'm aware that judo isn't BJJ, as judo has much more than newaza. BJJ techniques are primarily newaza. And before the sheep come screaming that its more than newaza, I might as well go further and state that the techniques that BJJ finds applicable are newaza, as you don't see them win using anything else. They can say that they do anything that they want, but if you can't execute a technique, then no one will acknowledge or respect your ability in that range. Regardless of all this, they all still came from jujitsu.

This is another untruth , bjj was defeated on the mat as well. If nothing else but the fight with the Jodoka Kimura which occured circa 1955

I'm aware of the Kimura match as we've spoken about this on the thread already. But I don't know the date. Regardless, the untruth is not mine as they've claimed not to have been defeated for decades. But I see your point.

Thanks again for the catch.

[cam427]

[QUOTE=Uke]

Regardless of all this, they all still came from jujitsu.

[QUOTE]

So what. The fact that a move came from a certain style does not make it the best at it.

That is like saying the Wright brothers first plane is better than a 747 because they mastered flight first. Things improve over time and many styles have been around for hundreds of years so saying they are off-shoots of jujitsu is no longer true. Also, if you look at arts from many cultures they contain similar moves. This is because the human body is a certain way, not because they stole it from a japanese guy.

Most styles have move into areas of specialisation so are better than jujitsu in certain areas. eg.

Kali guys are much better with weapons.
Escrima guys are better with sticks.
Kendo guys are better with swords.
Thai boxers are better strikers.
Wrestlers are better at takedowns.
Judo guys are better at throws.
BJJ guys are better at ground work.

Here is an idea. See if you can respond with an intelligent response rather than attacking me when my answer shows the weakness of the style you have a vested interest in.

your friend
Cam

[Uke]

Cam ...

What have you ever shown any weakness in? You've never once even mentioned the system that I practice, so what you're saying doesn't make any sense. And when have I ever attacked you? Anything you may have perceived as an attack came as a response to your disrespect. All the posts are still here. Pay attention to the fact that you come here to defend what you believe is being attacked(BJJ). I don't go to the BJJ topics and act childish like the rest of you. Its not that I've said anything to personally offend any of you. Its the fact that people with opinions like mine exist that offends people like you. Grow up and get over it.

There is no style that will make you into the best fighter. A fighter is a fighter 24/7. They train to fight. Their diet is geared toward fighting. Their mindset is focused on just fighting. They have to make weight. More importantly, they have the time to invest into all that because of sponsors. There are however self defense systems that will help non-pro-fighting normal people handle the aggression that they may face. These systems are different than the sport arts like boxing, thai Boxing, and kickboxing in that the techniques found in self defense systems are put together to end a fight by any means necessary. Of course judo and aikido won't cut it either, as the founders of both arts made it clear that they didn't want lethal techniques and maneuvers in their arts. That right there shows a more sporty attitude because as I've said ... when your life is on the line, you won't want to have limited your tools. Traditional karate is robotic and many see kung fu styles as lacking any real power.

Filipino martial arts are one of the only arts that have kept the techniques and methods brutal. They’ve made it clear that there’s one goal in mind and that’s to kill or maim. That was the goal of all martial arts originally, but as time went on, they became more and more sports-like and watered down. BJJ was spawned from judo, which is a watered down version of how jujitsu used to be practiced. Sports are not meant for self defense, and even though anything can be used to defend yourself, some methods are clearly better to use than others to avoid damage while administering your own. And not everybody is going to dedicate their entire life to being a fighter type athlete. Some of us have jobs. So I feel its the responsibility of the instructor to either teach non-pro people how to be effective without having to be a full time fighter, or admit that they're not qualified to do so.

If you wanted to learn how to play volleyball well, would you take up basketball? In both sports they use a ball, they both jump up to block the ball, and they both pass the ball. Well, sort of. And while I’m sure that a really good basketball player might do well at volleyball due to his athleticism, they wouldn’t do well against a pro volleyball player unless they began focusing on volleyball. And vice versa.

The point is that whatever it is you wish to do, you need to train for that end by focusing on what is necessary to produce successful results. Some people think that by becoming great ring athletes that they’ll automatically be great street fighters. They’ll be tougher than the average guy because they’re in shape and can hit, but being able to hit is hardly all of what makes a self defense practitioner effective. They’ll make mistakes that will get them killed because they are accustomed to fighting that way in the ring. The first clinch should be the last one, but with boxers, kickboxers and MMA guys it seldom is. After their opponent gets some distance the second time around, he’ll be much more cautious now because he realizes that you're going to fight, and you’ll have to work extra hard to close the distance again without getting hurt. And if he had a weapon that he didn’t introduce in the first exchange, he’ll have the opportunity now thanks to you. How likely is that to happen? VERY LIKELY, because that’s how the majority of all boxing, kickboxing, thai boxing and MMA matches go. And that’s no coincidence, because that’s how all of them train to fight.

In real life, you never know if the person has a gun, a knife, a couple of friends waiting on the other side of the corner, twice as much martial arts training as you do, etc. And just so you know ... the type of people that start fights regularly (i.e., the people you are likely to be "defending" yourself against) also happen to be the type of people who carry knives and guns most of the time. Just ask Lee Murray.

[mpossoff]

Cam ...

What have you ever shown any weakness in? You've never once even mentioned the system that I practice, so what you're saying doesn't make any sense. And when have I ever attacked you? Anything you may have perceived as an attack came as a response to your disrespect. All the posts are still here. Pay attention to the fact that you come here to defend what you believe is being attacked(BJJ). I don't go to the BJJ topics and act childish like the rest of you. Its not that I've said anything to personally offend any of you. Its the fact that people with opinions like mine exist that offends people like you. Grow up and get over it.

There is no style that will make you into the best fighter. A fighter is a fighter 24/7. They train to fight. Their diet is geared toward fighting. Their mindset is focused on just fighting. They have to make weight. More importantly, they have the time to invest into all that because of sponsors. There are however self defense systems that will help non-pro-fighting normal people handle the aggression that they may face. These systems are different than the sport arts like boxing, thai Boxing, and kickboxing in that the techniques found in self defense systems are put together to end a fight by any means necessary. Of course judo and aikido won't cut it either, as the founders of both arts made it clear that they didn't want lethal techniques and maneuvers in their arts. That right there shows a more sporty attitude because as I've said ... when your life is on the line, you won't want to have limited your tools. Traditional karate is robotic and many see kung fu styles as lacking any real power.

Filipino martial arts are one of the only arts that have kept the techniques and methods brutal. They’ve made it clear that there’s one goal in mind and that’s to kill or maim. That was the goal of all martial arts originally, but as time went on, they became more and more sports-like and watered down. BJJ was spawned from judo, which is a watered down version of how jujitsu used to be practiced. Sports are not meant for self defense, and even though anything can be used to defend yourself, some methods are clearly better to use than others to avoid damage while administering your own. And not everybody is going to dedicate their entire life to being a fighter type athlete. Some of us have jobs. So I feel its the responsibility of the instructor to either teach non-pro people how to be effective without having to be a full time fighter, or admit that they're not qualified to do so.

If you wanted to learn how to play volleyball well, would you take up basketball? In both sports they use a ball, they both jump up to block the ball, and they both pass the ball. Well, sort of. And while I’m sure that a really good basketball player might do well at volleyball due to his athleticism, they wouldn’t do well against a pro volleyball player unless they began focusing on volleyball. And vice versa.

The point is that whatever it is you wish to do, you need to train for that end by focusing on what is necessary to produce successful results. Some people think that by becoming great ring athletes that they’ll automatically be great street fighters. They’ll be tougher than the average guy because they’re in shape and can hit, but being able to hit is hardly all of what makes a self defense practitioner effective. They’ll make mistakes that will get them killed because they are accustomed to fighting that way in the ring. The first clinch should be the last one, but with boxers, kickboxers and MMA guys it seldom is. After their opponent gets some distance the second time around, he’ll be much more cautious now because he realizes that you're going to fight, and you’ll have to work extra hard to close the distance again without getting hurt. And if he had a weapon that he didn’t introduce in the first exchange, he’ll have the opportunity now thanks to you. How likely is that to happen? VERY LIKELY, because that’s how the majority of all boxing, kickboxing, thai boxing and MMA matches go. And that’s no coincidence, because that’s how all of them train to fight.

In real life, you never know if the person has a gun, a knife, a couple of friends waiting on the other side of the corner, twice as much martial arts training as you do, etc. And just so you know ... the type of people that start fights regularly (i.e., the people you are likely to be "defending" yourself against) also happen to be the type of people who carry knives and guns most of the time. Just ask Lee Murray.

Good post Uke and I agree 100%.

Years ago I took Tai Chi from a teacher who taught you how to fight, no fancy forms or that honky dory crap. He taught Tai Chi the way it was inteneded to fight. The way he taught it was effective.

Tai Chi and other CMA's have the ability to be devasting for self defense, IF THEY ARE TAUGHT that way....

Unfortunately they are not and sport oriented.

Self defense sytems like Krav Maga, etc teach you real life self defense and they have no sport focus at all. Very effective systems out there for self defense.

On another note, I know boxers that can kick ass both in the ring and outside the ring, so it depends how you train and your mindset.

I was brought up fighting and was never afraid to fight in my younger days.

It's all about mindset and attitude.

I guarantee most people on this board haven't really been in situations like that and would shit their pants if they were...even though with their martial arts training.

I have known some pretty damn tough dudes in my day with no martial arts training that could kick some ass.

I'll take a brawler type street fighter with no fear versus a martial arts practioner any day.

Big difference when attitude comes ito play and how tough you are when it counts.

Marc