The Effect of "Alive" Training on TMA

[danfaggella]

^ This is true, and is something I don't like too much about "kata" based training. The reason Kano's guys (the first Judo people ever, training under Kano) beat the shit out of all the other traditional jujutsu schools is due to the fact that he emphisized randori so much. Alive training like this is what developes skills and gets you used to situations and lets your mind and body REALLY come together.

I suppose kata is alright, but when I walk into a martial arts place I don't want it to be what I'm doing most of the time. Kata is something I do (for KF) in and out of class. I wish we did less of it in class, I think we should just get it tweeked to perfection and learn new ones in class, but it surely shouldn't be the main thing in the class. I think that out of class working on them and remembering all the movements is alright and has some validity, but when your with other guys, just go at it (hello...randori?). I do actually think that boxers could have kata if they wanted to. The coach could correct them in thier pre-arranged attack/defence/parry/duck/bob/weave/hook/strait motions and then the boxers could keep such things in mind as they train at home. Thing is, I don't know how much more effective this would be than shadow boxing and hitting the bag.........

If there is any research on the effectiveness of various ways of training, I would love to read it, and if there isn't I would love to write it.

[danfaggella]

Another point against traditional training methods:

We see MMA guys training in a VERY alive manner and so do boxers and soccer players and ping pong players ect... Yet traditionalists claim that sportive training will not prepare you for real combat, and that the way MMA guys train isn't going to be the most effective when preparing for the street. We don't see any other sport doing pre-arranged movements to prepare themselves, we see them training with aliveness, because this is very effective. I tend to think that this is also true when training for anything, including self defence. I beleive that alize training that incorperates some feined self defence technique (gouges and grain attacks ect...) is the best way to train. Obviously we can't spar and actually include these things, but if we train with aliveness it needs to be safe, but we can still incorperate self-defence stuff into training and fake it in sparring, let the guy know you COULD have poked his eyes out or grabbed his throat ect... I can't find any agruments against this being effective, I'm sure there are those who disagree and I am eager to listen, I'm not perfect.

[gregimotis]

We see MMA guys training in a VERY alive manner and so do boxers and soccer players and ping pong players ect

I think this is a great analogy and perfectly obvious once stated.

[medic06]

Is this a double edged sword question....because you can argue bolth way on this.Weights and endurance (well endurance mostly) is one of the most important things in fighting.I see where you are comming from on this...however endurance training is different then kata....bolth can be a great workout...but if your training for a fight...repeating a sequence of the same moves over and over again will become very predictable.Can you imagine a boxing kata? i can smell the KO's comming already....just not in your favor.

Ever heard of the "ol 1 - 2"

This is where the realization of what is fighting and what is training is important. If you try to use kata in a fight you'd get killed. If you drop to do 50 push ups in a fight you would get the same result.

Kata are like training wheels. They are restrictive and force you into a proper "form". This allows you to work safely on ATTRIBUTES that then can be used in a fight (e.g. balance developed from practicing with training wheels). The problem comes when people keep the training wheels on and think they are really riding a bicycle. It may seem like you can ride a bike but really can't. Most TMAists are like big kids riding around with the training wheels still on thinking they can ride as well as anyone.

Just jumping into sparring against real resistance is like pushing a five year down a hill on a bike over and over. He will eventually learn to ride if he doesn't kill himself wrecking first .

[JkD187]

Ever heard of the "ol 1 - 2"

This is where the realization of what is fighting and what is training is important. If you try to use kata in a fight you'd get killed. If you drop to do 50 push ups in a fight you would get the same result.

Kata are like training wheels. They are restrictive and force you into a proper "form". This allows you to work safely on ATTRIBUTES that then can be used in a fight (e.g. balance developed from practicing with training wheels). The problem comes when people keep the training wheels on and think they are really riding a bicycle. It may seem like you can ride a bike but really can't. Most TMAists are like big kids riding around with the training wheels still on thinking they can ride as well as anyone.

Just jumping into sparring against real resistance is like pushing a five year down a hill on a bike over and over. He will eventually learn to ride if he doesn't kill himself wrecking first .

Very good points....i like the way you think...when i have a son ill make sure to let him ride down a hill...ill tell him a wise man once told me this on the net a long time ago!

[danfaggella]

Thats how I learned, my dad pushed me down a hill like 80 times back them I was 5-6ish. I didn't enjoy it much, though.

[gabbah]

Damn! And I can't shoot in on him because he knows the ANTI-GRAPPLING...

I'm screwed.

Exactly. And even if you push him back and he falls on his back, you can't get close to him because he will lie there in his ving tsun stance and kick you away if you come close, and he will hurt you with those kicks! And his shoes will scrape your skin if you try to get close! And EVEN if, through some crazy miracle, you would manage to get past his legs and close to him, in mount or sidemount, it doesn't really matter, because when you try to hit him his hands will deflect your strikes and HE will hit YOU instead from the bottom! This is because his hands form a protective triangle from his head to his belly, and it's science. A scientific triangle, so... How can you defeat science? How can you defeat a triangle? You can't.