wheres the "soul" in combat sports

[Drag'n]

Hold the fucking phone. Did you just call ME a fucking punk?
Look in the mirror, you conceited, pretentious, self-righteous sack of shit. You have absolutely no credibility that would enable you to come in on a high horse and make value judgements about me, my constitution, no rmy character after listening to a few statements of mine over the internet.

Actually i've read a number of your posts and I think its pretty obvious what kind of a person you are.

[Drag'n]

AS I SAID EARLIER...rapists, and thugs, eh? They do not go out and learn fighting skills, they rely on their power to subjugate people that they believe to be weaker than themselves.

As for "checking" people out...no matter how well you get to know somebody initially, you have absolutely no ASSURANCE that they are, in fact, people who would go out and do bad shit.

My take on it is this...submissions are commonly known, everybody who had ever seen one on the UFC or elsewhere on tv can mimic them. Striking? Most people off the street that are fairly athletic and have a decent amount of strength and incentive to fight could probably kick the living shit out of most TMA guys.

Consider, thugs and ruffians, or whatever the **** you're reffering to, run in groups. They rely on sucker punching people, and then stomping them or using weapons.

rapists look for people they think they can exploit and overpower.

There is no need for training in an MA or combat sport to do those things, and most people so inclined to do those things do them with bravado and would mock people with formal training.

I'll tell you one certain thing, you couldn't tell if a person was a "bad guy" unless you caught them red handed...or they were indeed the sort that wasn't inclined to train.


As for techniques that are lethal...people scrap. Go out and find me twenty people who take a legitamtely dangerous art and are honest-to-goodness ruffians up to no good.
Do it.
20 out of however many thousands...

You make a few valid points.
But I personally have experienced otherwise.
I spent a short time training with some Americans who seemed to think that MA was an exercise in learning effective violence. The instructor had recently got out of prison on an assult charge. They would go out drinking after training and actually look to get into fights. When the senior student was asked why he trained, his reply was, "so I can **** people up! Isnt that why everyone trains?"
Thugs by my definition. And the scary thing is that these guys were practising some seriously dangerous shit. Mixing vicious SD techs with MMA.
They'd kick the crap out of most of the good amature fighters I know.

Besides that, some of the shit I see at kickboxing at MMA events really makes me sick. Some of these young fighters just have no respect anymore. Just bigmouthed trash.

I agree that you have no assurance about a persons character, no matter how well you think know them. But thats no excuse to just ignore your responsibility as a teacher of fighting skills.

My point is simple: If you're going to teach people potentially dangerous fighting skills, you better do whatever you can to instill an understanding of the consequences of misusing those skills. Do what you can to teach your students the importance of self control, and respect for others.
Teachers should feel a certain amount of responsibility for the consequences of teaching dangerous skills ,without also teaching the necessary skills to transend our own violent natures.

Unfortunately in some schools I've attended its been just the opposite. Encouraging violence, and promoting the glory of boosting our egos. No respect. No self discipline. That kind of attitude just dosent inspire me at all.

Its not just the thug like types. We all have to carefull not to let our egos entice us into misusing our skills over petty confrontations. I know if I was to lose my temper with some punk on the street I could do some serious damage. I know MArtists who have lost their cool, gotten into fights ,and put people in hospital.

Imitating moves off TV and actually receiving instruction from an experienced ring fighter is a whole different level of skill. Just dosent compare.

So Garland, I think we've both made our views pretty clear, and its obvious that we just aint gonna agree. So you can go ahead and give me another bashing if you like, but I'm pretty over it.

[jubaji]

I know if I were to lose my temper with some punk on the street I could do some serious damage.

Well, you hope.

[Garland]

But I personally have experienced otherwise.
I spent a short time training with some Americans who seemed to think that MA was an exercise in learning effective violence.

I know MArtists who have lost their cool, gotten into fights ,and put people in hospital.

So Garland, I think we've both made our views pretty clear, and its obvious that we just aint gonna agree. So you can go ahead and give me another bashing if you like, but I'm pretty over it.

Alright...so this is really about the character of American martial artists then?
Secondly, so there aren't people out there that have no MA training that get drunk, fight, and put people in the hospital? How farcical is that?

That's a pretty ridiculous argument to fall back on. I hope you realize that.

By the way, since I know you don't know me, I'd like to ask, just what is your problem with me, and what do you believe to be my character? Just what are you basing your assumptions on???

[seanyseanybean]

dont know if this has been said as i didnt read it all.

i think you should try judo. It has all the stuff you described and there are no forms or air punching.

[danfaggella]

There are Judo kata. Kano kept a lot of Japan's traditional Jujutsu techniques in the form of kata (includes "dirty" techniques and weapons stuff), and there are also kata that deal with Judo techniques that most people are familiar with.

Though, most people never get into this stuff and usually just do Randori, I might do that myself, kata isn't my favorite thing, but they exist in Judo and many champions practice them regularly.

[Garland]

Ahem...just where the hell does Judo fit into the conversation on whether or not there is "soul" in combat sports. Sure it's a combat sport, but it also falls into the category of a TMA, as do traditional Jiu Jitsu, and muay thai. And, for the record, there are many sport and combative based schools for judo and jiu jitsu...that have entirely no focus on the psuedo religious ethics that SOME TMA schools prosthelitize and push.

[Tant01]

Get bent... (not bow!)

Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something".
Plato


I've stayed out of this until now but I feel like adding that it would be good to see the standards of conduct a bit more restrained... or "professional" The whole sports belt thing is business, the pay per view NEEDS the hype to sell the ad space. Men of honor don't need to do backflips and run around the ring after they KO another competitor. Screaming and raising their hands in the air... I will never buy a ticket to any MMA event for just this reason. It's an embarrasment to the arts IMO but there are humble well trained and disciplined ATHLETES in the business... I seriously hesitate to use the word "fighter" in this context for the SAME REASON. It's just a sport.

[danfaggella]

They certainly qualify as athletes. If people call boxers "fighters" I would call Sakuraba or Fedor a fighter, thier sportive combat certainly translates to the street, and they can likely defend themselves better than your average martial artist. Despite this, I would not call most of them martial artists, because many of them are "fresh outa jail" looking guys who love to talk about how badass they are, and they do backflips when they win fights. Of course there are certainly some NHB competatiors who are dignified and intelligent, and some are martial artists and not just NHB sport fighters.

[Garland]

Despite this, I would not call most of them martial artists, because many of them are "fresh outa jail" looking guys who love to talk about how badass they are, and they do backflips when they win fights. Of course there are certainly some NHB competatiors who are dignified and intelligent, and some are martial artists and not just NHB sport fighters.

What do you do? What makes you so superior? Because you're fucking enlightened? Give me a break!

[Garland]

I've stayed out of this until now but I feel like adding that it would be good to see the standards of conduct a bit more restrained... or "professional"

Well...how NICE of you to lower yourself to our level and dirty your hands a bit. Let's thow out a few more pretentious quotes and then backpeddle on their meaning by riding in on a high horse! Tant01....I generally like most of the stuff you have to say...even when we disagree, you bring valid shit to the table...but c'mon man, what the **** is up with the high and mighty act? You're becoming one of these "Confucius say" fuckers.

Standards of conduct? Please, brother....standards??? Whose? Yours? I certainly hope not, pal, I like whatever little freedoms I have left...if you feel me, man.

[Garland]

I spent a short time training with some Americans who seemed to think that MA was an exercise in learning effective violence.

If they aren't, than they aren't very "martial" now are they?
Any secondary qualities of an art evolved out of the FACT that their primary function is to be "effective forms of violence", as a means to control of cope with the repercussions of that. If a martial art isn't a potential method of causing bodily harm,(either an effective one or a not-so-effective one) it isn't a martial art...it's interpretive dance.

Sure there's alot more to it then that...such as the self discipline and constraint, and respect and all the good internal and fitness aspects that can be reaped from training...but the primary goal of all martial arts is to hurt and/or restrain, or effectively deter an opponent. That's why they come into existence...

Your not punching and expecting butterflies and rainbows to spring forth are you? NO. You're expecting to punch to be able to protect something...and in doing so, potentially really hurt somebody. You're training as an exercise in violence. Admit it.

[Tant01]

There is no shame for the loser...

Well...how NICE of you to lower yourself to our level and dirty your hands a bit. Let's thow out a few more pretentious quotes and then backpeddle on their meaning by riding in on a high horse! Tant01....I generally like most of the stuff you have to say...even when we disagree, you bring valid shit to the table...but c'mon man, what the **** is up with the high and mighty act? You're becoming one of these "Confucius say" fuckers.

Standards of conduct? Please, brother....standards??? Whose? Yours? I certainly hope not, pal, I like whatever little freedoms I have left...if you feel me, man.

Not at all. It is MY OPINION that a certain level of etiquette be observed and Professional SPORTSMAN like conduct should be enforced... That is all.

When I see the celebration after a victory that involves little or NO RESPECT for the defeated opponent it pisses me off. Showmanship is one thing but what of humility? Honor? Modesty? Discipline, self controll, a bit of class?


You're all a bunch of animals!

[Drag'n]

If they aren't, than they aren't very "martial" now are they?
Any secondary qualities of an art evolved out of the FACT that their primary function is to be "effective forms of violence", as a means to control of cope with the repercussions of that. If a martial art isn't a potential method of causing bodily harm,(either an effective one or a not-so-effective one) it isn't a martial art...it's interpretive dance......

OK you got me, I cant resist a reply to this nonsense.
Sure at their most crude level MA were created as a method of survival. But many evolved into something much deeper and more valuable.The focus shifted from mere fighting techs, to an art of self perfection. Fighting becomming a means to an end rather than the goal itself. Japanese Budo is an obvious example.
From there many were again transformed into mere sports. Before I got into Muay Thai and MMA I had an extensive background in TMA. And I have lived in Japan for more than 12 years now. So my view of the MA comes from a traditional Japanese Budo perspective. For me my training is so much more than just fighting. To reduce Budo to a fighting sport devoid of principle is just absurd to any old school budoka, and lacking in any true understanding or merit. Your shallow views would draw nothing but contempt from any experienced Budoka.
Now I know that you and many others on here really dont give a shit about us old school guys and our lofty sense of honor, but if you're going to try and reduce our arts to little more than organised violence, then I'm gonna continue to offer an alternative opinion for those of you who can see beyond the short term, ego driven goal of competition victory.
Personally I think MMA have really brought the technical aspects of training to a new level of practicality. Taking the best from all the TMA and blending them into a very effective fight tested format. But to ignore the wisdom contained in those traditional arts and reduce them to ego driven fighting sports is a great loss.
Maybe Its too late.

[OmaPlata]

You make a few valid points.
But I personally have experienced otherwise.
I spent a short time training with some Americans who seemed to think that MA was an exercise in learning effective violence. The instructor had recently got out of prison on an assult charge. They would go out drinking after training and actually look to get into fights. When the senior student was asked why he trained, his reply was, "so I can **** people up! Isnt that why everyone trains?"
Thugs by my definition. And the scary thing is that these guys were practising some seriously dangerous shit. Mixing vicious SD techs with MMA.
They'd kick the crap out of most of the good amature fighters I know.

Besides that, some of the shit I see at kickboxing at MMA events really makes me sick. Some of these young fighters just have no respect anymore. Just bigmouthed trash.

I agree that you have no assurance about a persons character, no matter how well you think know them. But thats no excuse to just ignore your responsibility as a teacher of fighting skills.

My point is simple: If you're going to teach people potentially dangerous fighting skills, you better do whatever you can to instill an understanding of the consequences of misusing those skills. Do what you can to teach your students the importance of self control, and respect for others.
Teachers should feel a certain amount of responsibility for the consequences of teaching dangerous skills ,without also teaching the necessary skills to transend our own violent natures.

Unfortunately in some schools I've attended its been just the opposite. Encouraging violence, and promoting the glory of boosting our egos. No respect. No self discipline. That kind of attitude just dosent inspire me at all.

Its not just the thug like types. We all have to carefull not to let our egos entice us into misusing our skills over petty confrontations. I know if I was to lose my temper with some punk on the street I could do some serious damage. I know MArtists who have lost their cool, gotten into fights ,and put people in hospital.

Imitating moves off TV and actually receiving instruction from an experienced ring fighter is a whole different level of skill. Just dosent compare.

So Garland, I think we've both made our views pretty clear, and its obvious that we just aint gonna agree. So you can go ahead and give me another bashing if you like, but I'm pretty over it.

What stone did this turd-crusted-cretin crawl out from under?