for those interested in something different

[surf001]

Capoeira is a martial art from Brazil created by african slaves over 400 years ago
altho to most it looks like siply dance and music its an effective style for self defece and a great way to get in shape for more info visit

https://www.grupocafu.com

[danfaggella]

Capoeira is a great traditionaly brazilian thing. It sure is a great way to work on flexibility, balance, rythem, and I think the chicks dig it. However, I wouldn't even consider it a martial art. This is by no means an effective way to learn to defend yourself.

[surf001]

any martial art if taught properly can be an effective means of self defence
altho most people who speack of capoeira as a brazilian thing really have only seen one side of the style wich is the side most see, like in any martial art it takes hard work and practice to become proficient, and no just incase it comes up the ginga (dance)or the acrobatics arent used for self defence.
bradda its part of the tradition like in muytai before fights they do a little dance and have music but i have never seen a muytai fighter dance in a self defence situatiaon nor have i seen a capoeirista (exept for those who pretend to know)
use ginga or flip in a situation that requieres for the martial aspects of the style.

but this is something that could go on and on.

Im a capoeirista and i take pride in my style like im sure you do in yours.
and capoeira like anyother style has things that only those properly iniciated in the style will learn and be able to use.
granted here in the states is hard to find good capoeira but its outhere.

[muaythaiguy15]

Sorry, I dont by any means bash any martial art, but I must say that only a few of the moves in Capoeria are really "street useful". The less flashy techniques are pretty good from what Ive seen.

[danfaggella]

That is my point, but the next time a Capoeira guy destroys all opposition in K1 I'll have to hand it to you. However, this is not concievable.

I take plenty of pride in the arts I practice, but I don't take thier merits as gospel truths. Capoeira can look like fighting sometimes and I'm sure they have fights within thier style, but its mostly acrobatics and dance and a lot less martial practicality. I suppose BJJ could help rythem and body control in dancing, but that is far fetched and I certainly wouldn't call BJJ a "dance", just like I would hardly refer to Capoeira as a martial art. African arts have things goin for them, and I'v already states what I lke about capoeira, most notably that the chicks dig it. However, its much more of a rythmic and acrobatic show than a martial art, it surely isn't as grounded in practicality as other arts, because it derrived from dance. Most african arts are this way, many of thier "fights" go on with drums in the background and strange showey moves that aren't necissarily practical.

[Uke]

Surf001

No disrespect to these other gentlemen, but they have only seen as much capoeira as they look for. At one point, I felt the same way, but I learned that I was wrong.

What is commonly shown of capoeira would lead anyone who only casually watches it to the same conclusions. I first got involved with capoeira with Mestre Bayano in New Jersey. His group was great to watch. But it was when he had his batizado and invited professors from all of the country and Brazil that I began to see the light. Afterwards, I went to Mestre Lincoln's batizado in Queens and met Mestre Alabama and many other great capoeirista. It was at that batizado that I bumped into a guy I knew who had began taking capoeira. I told him pretty much the same things these guys are saying. I said that it was beautiful to watch and takes alot of athleticism, but wouldn't work for self defense. He told me about his group and invited me to watch. His group played full contact. They also used weapons. The way they used a staff was out of this world. I've never seen anyone use a staff like that. The Mestre there had been challenged by a shotokan fighter, and it was to be full contact. The man made the shotokan fighter look foolish. He toyed with him, even though the shotokan fighter went all out. The mestre then began showing instances when he could have kicked him or introduced a weapon. Talk about schooling a person. They are very formidable. My friend explained to me that capoeirista don't like to show the bad intentions side of the art because it was banned once upon a time, and in Brazil its still looked down upon by many people.

So, for the viewing public it seems like a dance that throws kicks. But if you are lucky enough to find a Mestre that teaches the real deal, it is definitely worth taking a look at. I had stated this before on another topic, but I wouldn't advocate capoeira as self defense only because it would take years just to become minimally effective, let alone show any degree of mastery. It requires a great deal of strength and athleticism, which means only certain individuals can do it. And if you're old or a small woman, it may not be as effective. Now let me clarify that: Most of the head Mestres are old, and are still in incredible shape. I meant that if you are starting as an older person, it may not be for you. I'm not sure how competent they are with weapons and disarms, but that staff demonstration was awe inspiring. I do know that if they catch you with a spinning kick they can not only knock you out, they might break your jaw or neck. The full weight of your body behind one strike delivers a killer blow.

But if you guys get a chance to go to a batizado, do it.

[danfaggella]

I've seen 2 groups engaged in it and talked to them about it, and seen bits of it here and there.

I suppose anything COULD be effective for self-defence, like gymnastics or hockey or whatever, but as you stated, this isn't the bet route to take if you want to learn to defend yourself. Sure the guys who have been doing it for a while are good at it and may do this and that, but if you are thinking "aw man, I really need to learn how to defend myself!" then this is not the most effective path fro you to take. Even fans or loyal practicioners of capoeira have to admit that.

^view last post about african martial arts and the grounding in dance and music rather than in martial practicality.

IMO cap. is great for many things, but not as an effective means of self-defence, it is very hard to for me to consider it a martial art.

[muaythaiguy15]

Well I consider it a martial art because of its origin and that it does use striking. I agree its not very practical as a self defence, not that it cant be used but there are way better styles to take for the purpse of self defense.

[danfaggella]

Well it depends on how you define martial art I suppose.

I don't like the dictionary definition:
'Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.'

Come to think of it, pretty much all martial arts are of asian origin. I'm not sure weather I can call pankration a martial art, I don't consider western boxing to be a martial art..... this one just opened a little pandora's box for me. I suppose that any school of combat techniques can be considered a martial art. I'm not sure if pankration had names for their techniques like Judo or other arts do. I think it could be considered one, but I would not consider 'martial art' to be the primary purpose for capoeira, though I would love to see these masters at work who Uke speaks of.

[Uke]

Capoeira has changed ...

... as did everything else that had to come through slavery.

By my response, you can see that I agree with you, danfaggella. I don't think that capoeria is the best or quickest way to self defense. Can it be devestating? Yes, and I know this. Can it be used against a trained fighter? Yes, but you'd have to be in the upper echelon of capoeira. Most aren't taught to fight with bad intentions in capoeira. The pull their kicks just like in sport karate, and like I've said on other topics, you'll execute the way you've trained. It would take an average man with no training quite a few years to become proficient using capoeira, and a self defense system should have you better than average within 6 months. So after a year of training, a capoeira practitioner would be much less prepared than someone who trained in self defense for one year.

Only a few of the capoeiristas I've seen use weapons. There may be many, but I'm only in NY and have only been exposed to a few different organizations. I've never seen and disarms that I thought were realistic, but when the few that fight get going, its a lot more tactical and dangerous than watching the average rhoda/roda.

Keep in mind that brazil did NOT originate in Brazil, but in Africa. It was an indigenous fighting style from Angola and they used the staff and spear. As slaves were shipped to South America and fighting arts and their original language were forbidden, they hid the fight in the jinga and the reason that you don't see knives and the staff in the rhoda is the same reason that many capoeiristas keep their wrists together while they jinga: Their hands were binded by chains.

So while some changes did occur in South America, they drifted away from the way the art was practiced when the Angola were free to defend themselves with weapons. Some people have tried to keep the original ways alive. Regional is where you'll see many of the elaborate flips that aren't even combat related. But Regional isn't the original form.

Its not like the conquistadors came to Brazil and saw Mayans, Aztecs and Incas doing capoeira.

[danfaggella]

Thats right, you can just look at it and know its African. As I stated before it is like every other African martial art I've ever known, and is based mostly on tradition, dance, and music, not on practical fighting aplication like that seen in other asian arts or savate or krav or ect....

[Uke]

As I stated before it is like every other African martial art I've ever known, and is based mostly on tradition, dance, and music, not on practical fighting aplication like that seen in other asian arts or savate or krav or ect....

If you believe that, you should go and learn more about africa and the martial arts itself. I'm not about to elaborate here on this topic about the origins of certain arts or where they came from, but I will suggest doing some research before committing to that statement. Find out where the oldest record of combat is located. Find out what statement that Mas Oyama made that made him fall out of favor with the Japanese. If you are truly interested in knowing what arts came from Africa, research might surprise you. If not, then just forget about this post and let's move on.

[danfaggella]

I have done some research on african martial arts, and the statement that "most are based on dance and music not in fighting practicality" is pretty valid from what I know. I'm interested in knowing what forms of legitimate traditional/modern martial arts came from there, but I've only known about a few (most of the ones i've known about were braught over by slaves, to south and north america). I'm sure they have thier place in culture and they may be a lot of fun and very interesting but I haven't read about any notable editions to the martial arts from africa, in any time period.

I'll believe that the oldest record of combat is from africa, PEOPLE are from africa, by that I mean... HUMANS orrigionated in africa, the oldest of a lot of stuff is over there. I don't think that that old record of combat involved a system of self-defence techniques, either empty hand or involving weapons, and is so, I don't think it had any effect on the major developement of martial arts which are respected and popular nowadays, or the predicessors to the arts that are respected/popular now.

[Uke]

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?p=173448#post173448

And that is just a start. You are correct though, danfeggella. There ARE a lot of firsts in Africa. But if you know the history of the continent, then you konw that many of the major sciences and arts were destroyed and/or stolen so that other could take credit. Its hard to offer evidence without extreme research that can only usually be found in foreign libraries and museums and from an oral tradition. But if you dig deep enough you'll see. There are even hieroglyphics that show self defense training.

A couple of hundred Zulu warriors armed with only spears didn't defeat thousands of European troops who were armed with guns and swords because they were just "ggod" at throwing spears. The Euros only triumphed due to the development of the gatling gun, because they didn't win a confrontation while they only had single shot and reload rifles and revolvers.

Well, you sound like a studious person, so I'm sure you'll look into it and learn a bit.

Great talking with you, dan.

[jubaji]

... Can it be devestating? Yes, and I know this. .

...................because....................?