Knees?

[Nthman]

OK having some knee issues lately..I study TKD (yeah yeah) 4 times per week and we do sparring each of these days. Lately my knees have been making a nice cracking noise when I stand up and if I kneel down or even put much weight on one leg with a bent knee I get some pain. Knee problems are pretty common with TKD I know, are there specific excercises I should do or do I need to eat more of a specific food etc? I really want to take care of this before it gets worse.

THanks!

[dan downard]

Stop! And STOP NOW.From here,it can only get worse.Stop kicking and start working on getting strength back in those joints.They are too loose and need to be tightened back up so you are using muscle to support the joint.Join the closest BJJ school.Get some nice soft knee pads.And only start from your knees.That way you wear out the rest of your body to match your knees.
Kicking in the air is very bad as the only thing stopping your knee from over extending is a small ridge of bone and the ligaments.Once you wearout that ridge of bone,your knee will stert over extending and you are on your way to a snapped ACL.You should never fully extend your leg when kicking in the air.
Landing on one leg after a jumping kick is pretty bad on your knees too.

[Underdog]

I have praticed and competed in tkd for a long time. It's quite common between tkd guys to have bad knees and hamstring problems. The reasin I guess it's because too much emphasis is put on stretching beyond normal range limits. That weaken the joints big time. I'd felt for a long time a loser in tkd because I was never able to do full splits, even if I reached head height easily with kicks, now I'm very glad for two things:
- I have a very strong leg ligaments
- I never forced the splits

I've noted a worsening of knee problems in guys that thrown a lot of side kicks. Not so with round kickers (as myself).

From now STOP immediately doing kicking AND stretching. Try to strenghten the ligaments doing LIGHT weights and isometric contractions.

[Nthman]

Damn, not what I wanted to hear but I am glad I heard it. I am only 22 and I definitely don't want to have knee problems from here on out. I really like TKD but its taking its toll on my knees, I could go less but I really can't bring myself to give anything less than %100 Hmmmmm damn....how is BJJ on the joints? I have lingering tendonitis from my days as a musician hehe and hapkido type joint locks seem to aggravate that...from what I have seen of Bjj it seems to be mostly if not all large joint locking and no small joints...hmm, this is a bummer but I am constantly thinking about me knees lately, not sure what to do now because TKD has pretty much been my motivation for life the last 2 years driving me to new levels of intensity I never knew I had. I guess I can hopefully apply that to something less harmful to my body. I am 6' 2" and 230lbs so perhaps not suited to a "kicking" art so much? I dunno, maybe i will go watch some Bjj classes at Rick Faye's school here and see how it goes, I just don't want to be one of those guys who can't do jack because of permanent knee injuries.

Thanks for dah info guys

[gungfuhero]

The same thing happens to Boxer's elbows. The problem isn't necessarily the air punching/kicking, but the emphasis on locking things out hard. I used to get a sore elbow after throwing rear crosses, until one of my instructors explained to me that the power of the cross came from hip torque and soulder follow through rather than violent tricep contraction. Take some time off from TKD, but when/if you take it up again, experiment with keeping your legs looser when you kick and not locking your joints out as violently. On the bright side, you now have a reason to pursue other areas of martial art.

[sccr06]

I think everyone in this forum has had a knee injury! But just to help you on the BJJ side of it...I just got over a knee injury. I'm still not sure if it is BJJ related or jogging related but I think it came from a heel hook (ACL injury). The moral here is when you start training your BJJ be very carefull about working leglocks. In fact, I wouldn't recommend even starting unless you feel VERY comfortable both on the ground and with your training partner's skills on the ground.

Also, just some FYI, I went to the orthopedic doctor dude and he gave me a free activity knee brace. it is kinda tight but now that I am used to it, it is very good for working out. It had lots of support for the knee cap.

Good luck and heal up!

[bobby_steeles]

i've never practiced tkd and my knees are pretty bad. unless you never train with leg or ankle locks, i think grappling is worse for your knees than any striking arts.

[edro]

9876543210

[Scytale]

Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of it comes down to genetics. My best friend and I were pretty hard into TKD for 3 years until we moved on to different styles. We worked agressively towards the splits (never got them!) including forcing hips down and pulling legs out. Frankly I'm amazed I don't have any persistent injuries from that time.

Anyway, my friend is much more athletically inclined than I am. I have to work hard to keep the weight off, and I have to work hard to gain proficiency with techniques where both come pretty natural to him. However, he came out of our TKD times with a popped hamstring and back trouble, both of which still bother him. We did the exact same stuff! While I don't have the talent he does, I don't have the tendencies toward injury either. On balance I'm happy to train harder and not hurt in the morning.

So know your limits! Now I'm very cautious. If something hurts I quit working that body area for a while. Warm up and be very careful about over-extending techniques like TKD encourages.

[sccr06]

edro- go get it checked. It might be your ACL. I didn't even notice my injury until the kneecap filled up with liquid. But leading up to it I always had the feeling like I wanted my knee to pop (like when you crack your knuckles?). The doc said that is because your kneecap is shifting and floating in all that liquid building up. The best thing is not to bend your knee. Give it a rest for about 2 weeks and see how it feels.

Also, I used to do like you and run stairs a lot and squats. At one point I was doing 500 squats (no wieght) a day. I recently read somewhere that you shouldn't do more than 200 or 250.

[John Bennett]

Nthman,

The TKD kicks are definately bad. I did them for 7 years until I had to stop because I could barely walk from my car to my office in the mornings.

TKD instructors always demand "crisp" techniques that "snap". That violent extention of your joints will kill them as others have said.

If you must do TKD, don't kick the air with "snap" when doing your forms. Just go through the motions with vigor but leave out the "snap". Save the power for the heavy bag.

There is a whole sheath of small muscles and tendons that keep your knee in place. The muscles must be strong. TKD subjects the knee to all kinds of unnatural rotational and lateral forces. Usually the knee adapts by strengthening those muscles.

Sometimes however everything happens just wrong and the knee can't withstand the punishment and blows out.

The only way to help avoid the blow-out is STRENGTH TRAINING.

Knee extensions and Squats will protect you. Low repetitions, heavy weight.

Do them.

[NGU]

Knees

I have done TKD for a long time and do not have knee problems. First, I'm not as tall as you are. However, I do not just snap my kicks in the air unless I'm doing a form for a test or competition. I do not over-extend. The same thing can happen to your arms with backknuckles and ridgehands, if you aren't punching something. I save the power work for the heavy bag and sparring (contact sparring).

My suggestion - get it checked out by a doctor, start working with weights (and a trainer for a couple of times),
take it easy on the TKD but don't quit (I've worked thru it with a broken wrist and plenty of other small injuries). Let your instructors know what the problem is - if they are any good they will have suggestions to help you - if not change schools.

Good Luck

[Nthman]

Thanks for the advice John, I am definitely going to be taking it easy but I don't want to give up TKD it has a lot to offer besides the sport aspect of it. I am pretty flexible which may be my problem, I am going to work on strengthening my knees while taking it easy with the air kicks.

[Nthman]

Also thanks NGU! (your post came in while I was typing that last reply!)

[Justin]

try yoga

Your gonna have some kind of risk for injury in all martial arts and sports and pretty much with gain in life comes risk - if your gonna hurt your knees and back and neck and stuff I would rather get hurt in jiujitsu than tkd but if you want to remain flexible and not get injured you should try some yoga to compliment any martial arts practice- yoga will strengthen you legs also.

justin

http://www.thirdheaven.com