Knee kicks and wrist locks

[Tom Yum]

Stomping kicks to the knee are not allowed. They are difficult to pull off (the timing has to be just right, hitting a straight leg as it is bearing weight) but, if it does work, the other guy gets a broken leg.

The wrist locks? Yes! They are allowed. But they never get used because........ wait for it.......... They don't work against a resisiting opponent 99% of the time.

Stomping and side kicks to the knee do work, like you mentioned. I have used them, but you have to aim slightly above the knee and direct the force downward.

Wrist locks work, when your opponent is commited to holding on to you. Say someone's in your guard, they've got their legs sprawled out and are grabbing tightly on to your gi. You can pull thumb locks and wrist locks as a distraction.

They do work.

[WildWest.]

Wrist locks have worked in training for me as well against a larger, resisting opponent. Sometimes though you may need to strike a person first or manipulate their fingers or thumb in order to get the desired result.
To dismiss them completely is unwise, but to rely on them completely is just as unwise.

[EmptyneSs]

Stomping and side kicks to the knee do work, like you mentioned. I have used them, but you have to aim slightly above the knee and direct the force downward.

you broke someones leg?

[Thai Bri]

In a very limited situation.

Count the number of shots thrown vs the number of shots landed in a typical boxing match. Compare the number thrown and the number landed with the number of KO punches. 95% of the time a right cross doesn't knock your opponent out...therefore it must be useless because they always block it, right?

Not at all. Two boxers do NOT cooperate. Thus they learn to apply their techniques against a non cooperating opponent. And, of course, they learn how to avoid the technique when it is comeing at them.

When the skill levels of the two fighters are similar you do, indeed, see many blows that fail. These people cancel each other out.

Watch a boxer against someone untrained. The less able guy will soon hit the deck a snoozin'.


Now, lets contrast this training style with the wrist lock brigade. These people cooperate with each other when they are first learning the technique... they cooperate with each other when they are getting "good" at the technique..... and they are still cooperating with each other when they are black belts.

But they still fail against the untrained guy. Why? Because they enever learned how to deal with someone who is NOT complying.

[WildWest.]

My friend knows a police officer who is a black belt something in Aikido. One day a gang member threw a straight punch at him which he dodged, caught the guys wrist in mid air and broke it....compound fracture, the works. It sounds like BS...after all who seriously believes in all those catching punches techniques? It seems it was a true story though. Most likely a fluke? I don't know. Personally I would never try and catch a punch, but then I have the experience to make that call. I know some people at our Hapkido club that still believe its a viable technique....and then you throw a punch at them.

I do agree with you in theory Thai Bri about going with the wrist lock technique while training them. It avoids injury to some extent. I have only been doing Hapkido for 2 years, but have been doing Muay Thai for about 9, so can't really speak from any great experience regarding the locking arts and their techniques. I have had new people resist wrist lock techniques at training and they hurt themselves, it certainly does change the dynamics of the technique but then in Hapkido if your opponent reacts a certain way then you must change your technique to counter it into something else. I like knee strikes.

[SamuraiGuy]

The only wrist locks I've ever used are when I've caught a guy in an Omoplata or something, he's flattened out, cant move, and I can tear his shoulder off, but I try to switch it up a little bit and just push on the wrist.

I really havent ever seen/used any wrist locks where I couldnt simply do something else just as painful, (armbar, omoplata, etc..)

[Thai Bri]

Lets think about this logically.

We're talking fighting. We're fighting a human who has a body that has inherent weak points, so it makes sense to attack those.

So lets make a quick assessment of these targets.

Eyes?
Throat?
Jaw?
Kidneys?
Groin?

Nah. Let's attack his wrists.......

[jeff5]

I think Guro Dan said it best about joint locks in actual combat/vs. a resisting opponent. They're incidental and accidental. (or something like that!) Meaning you really can't plan them, they might just be there, or you may fall into one.

I also think alot of people do joint locking wrong. They do it slow, or half assed. Joint locks are VERY easy to resist BEFORE they are on all the way. Once they are on though, you're kind of screwed unless you want something broken.

Another issue I see is position. People do joint locks and just stand there and look at their opponent. First you have to be in some position where he can't retaliate or its very hard for him. (usually on the outside of his body) After the lock is applied, the opponent is up on his toes and totally off balance or face down on the ground, standing there with him having his balance is a good way to get hit/get the lock broken or resisted.

[Thai Bri]

Now many people who use these locks state that they are best used AFTER an effective blow. I.e. blast the fucker with an elbow, and then the wrist lock will work.

But that is also false logic. Blast him with an elbow well enough and you could paint a clown's mask on his face! It's the blast that does the job, not what you do after it.

[Mephariel]

Who uses a wrist grab takedown in real life anyway? I seen shoulder throws or hand/arm chin na (as in controlling your opponent). But a TAKEDOWN by grabbing the wrist? Why go for such a small target to attempt a takedown? I am not saying it can't work, but isn't there are many more effective ways to take someone down?

[gregimotis]

Who uses a wrist grab takedown in real life anyway? I seen shoulder throws or hand/arm chin na (as in controlling your opponent). But a TAKEDOWN by grabbing the wrist? Why go for such a small target to attempt a takedown? I am not saying it can't work, but isn't there are many more effective ways to take someone down?

Exactly so.

[WildWest.]

Now many people who use these locks state that they are best used AFTER an effective blow. I.e. blast the fucker with an elbow, and then the wrist lock will work.

But that is also false logic. Blast him with an elbow well enough and you could paint a clown's mask on his face! It's the blast that does the job, not what you do after it.

I don't have significant experience with the locking arts yet (I am working on it), nor have I had to try and use a wrist lock in a fight situation, so I am happy to be corrected by those with the experience and knowledge to back themselves up.

Thai Bri, I have read in one of your previous, older posts (different thread) that you did successfully use a wrist lock on someone once but the same wrist lock didn't work on a different individual in a different situation. Are they all completely useless? Can they be applied depending on the situation? Are the techniques dependent on too much fine motor skills and can they be adjusted to another different technique (ie an arm bar, throw, choke, finger lock) involving more gross motor skills and therefore a better and faster result? I don't have a problem with finishing a fight with a hard elbow to the face...hey I love elbows! And knee kicks, throat strikes (if you can get there) etc. But sometimes breaking someones face with an elbow might be too extreme for the situation. True/false?

I have been taught by my Hapkido instructor that there are techniques which will not work on some people and some that will. He is, I believe, quite realistic with our training and readily admits that there are Hapkido techniques that he simply would not use in a confrontation therefore you must adjust your counter attacks accordingly (this is a principle of Hapkido). However, he has to teach them because that is the art and we must know them to get graded. Still it would be nice to know early on what is most likely to work and what isn't. I guess that's up to the individual and a bit of personal experience.

I've read a lot of your posts Thai Bri and you sound like someone with considerable practical street experience when using MA techniques. I have been in the MA's for 15 years, I have no ego, not concerned about being corrected when wrong and am keen to learn from those who know more than me and have the experience to back it up. I don't arse kiss either but respect useful information. I am interested to hear about your training, how you believe it to be effective, and your experiences and from anybody else who can help me.

[J-Luck]

A side kick to the knee is the same as a stomp kick to the knee.

What I'm not understanding is if someone can kick to the knee when they're on their back keeping someone away(it happens all the time in MMA) then why can't they do it when they are both standing. Low roundhouse kicks are allowed.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

What I'm not understanding is if someone can kick to the knee when they're on their back keeping someone away(it happens all the time in MMA) then why can't they do it when they are both standing. Low roundhouse kicks are allowed.

If youre in the buttscoot position youre allowed to kick your opponent's knee. In mma(but not kickboxing), you ARE allowed to use stomp kicks to your opponent(and his knee) just as long as both fighters are standing. Kicking an opponents knee, especially in mma competition(and on the street) will not break someone's knee or snap their leg in half, thats a misconception...and thats why its legal in mma.

[Penance]

Not at all.
Now, lets contrast this training style with the wrist lock brigade. These people cooperate with each other when they are first learning the technique... they cooperate with each other when they are getting "good" at the technique..... and they are still cooperating with each other when they are black belts.

Who are you talking about..."these people"? Some Aikido dude? I'm talking about me here. Me and me alone. I use wrist locks quite often in my BJJ and MMA game. I've never done Aikido or any of that stuff in my life.

Like I said, they're a tool. You use them when they're appropriate, either by setting them up or when your opponent presents the opportunity, just like any other technique.

Saying wrist locks suck is like saying omoplatas suck. You don't see omoplatas very often, but saying you should never train or think about an omoplata is just as silly as saying you should ignore wrist locks.