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Mik36 - could you just answer Dick's question directly?
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Salon? SF Examiner?
Ober:
The links you provided are dreadful. Salon? They love to tantalize and rely on race, sex, typically to get people to go onto their site.
The SF Examiner article is a joke. The Skeptic had a great article on race and athletic performance and they did mention this writer. I find it ironic that he points out that blacks longer limbs is a detriment to weightlifting. Huh? Most blacks have longer limbs? What about running backs? They have to be stocky than long limbed. Blacks make poor swimmers because they have lower body fat. This is science?
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"One thing most of my arguments bear in common, is that they refer to examples where when all things being equal, blacks(when I say blacks, I am referring to those of african decent possessing dark skin, & afro hair...) appear to perform better in many sports. This largely mitigates the possibility of the difference being attributable to social-economic/cultural factors"
Ober,
testerone.net is a joke. To refer to anything they have is a joke.
Well, you've made a very natural mistake. One one hand, you're saying nurture is not the key but nature. But then you admit even if genetics can't identify genes that identify certain traits (superior) for certain athletic performance then how can you prove scientifically anything you're arguing? So all you've done is fall back on the anecdotal argument which is of course unscientific.
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"Regarding the high jumper example... high jumping is a very skill dependent sport as well. Ex: Elite olympic lifters have much higher straight verticals than elite volley ball players, runners, basketball players, and high jumpers.... anecdotal evidence supports this, and comparison & testing of athletes at the 1976 Olympics confirms it, as well as other studies. But, they aren't the best high jumpers. "
Ober,
You're saying on one hand, it's apparent and obvious that blcks are superior and we cna discounet nurture or socialization or other non-genetic (nature) influences, yet now you're admitting that high jumpers rely more on skill.
I'd like to ask how much skill is involved? Isn't there more skill in being a top basketball player? You have to be a decent to great shooter, have great eye to hand coordination, endurance, jumping ability etc.
Where do you get that argument? Who has stated it is a highly skill dependent sport? Golf is a very skill or mechanics oriented sport. Jumping, sprinting, long distance rely less on "coordination" or neuromuscular coordination.
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"Politically Correct thugs "
Okay. Maybe one day we can identify genes for goofballs.Comment
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"Can you name me one sport where asians or caucasians are the minority at the entry/recreational levels, yet are the overwhelmingly predominant race/ethnic group at the elite level? "
Swimming has whites dominating the entry/recreational or high school level and they also dominate the elite levels.
Winter sports tend to have whites dominating. Skiing is a perfect example. Triathlons, pole vaulting, etc
Can you name one sport where blacks are a minority at the entry levels but dominant at the elite level? Uh, typically, you would see any group dominate at the elite levels also dominate at the lower levels.
We still haven't fully discounted or you haven't discounted how non-genetic influences show that blacks are superior.
Are blacks the best powerlifters, triathletes? What you haven't proven is shown how blacks have done better when money, cultural affinity, etc can be discounted? Youhaven't but you claimed you have.
The references you have mentioned are ones I have read awhile ago.
Note than a small Mexican can dominate in the lighter boxing divisions and show tremendous athletic and boxing ability. A perfect example is Tyson ho loved watching a lighter weight fighter because he loved the guy's abilities.
Joe Louis actually fought a middleweight who was white. The middleweight actually was ahead on points untilhe got cocky and tried to outpunch Louis who promptly took the opportunity to knock him out.
So we should discount size as a requirement in certain sports. Sumo has an open weight system. There are some smaller Sumo guys who have hung in with the biggest guys and have survived in the sport. Are we saying because Tyson can knock out Roy Jones Jr, than Roy is inferior as an athlete? I hink not.
Asian Americans represent a small percentage of the US population and though historically have an extremely long history in the US, many are immigrants or descendents of immigrants who tend to go into traditional professions.
The fact that historically we had asian americans play professional basketball is quite amazing. Also, the fact that we are importing japanese, korean ball players is quite amazing.
The focus has been incorrectly placed upon race as a "marker" to athletic performance instead of looking at the genetic prerequisite for athletic superiority.
To make it simple:
A white person may have the genetic goods to be a great runner, the fact that he is white has little to do with his ability UNLESS we are claiming that the european population has a specific percentage of individuals with certain traits advantage for certain sports.
Sort of like saying if we can discount for non-genetic influences, are we more likely to find engineers or scientists to come from the male or female population.
It's so apparent that you have asians who are tall and are better ball players than whites. That is anecdotal evidence one can observe.
If this obvious observation makes sense then race is irrelevant to the argument at hand. If blacks have a greater percentage of individuals with certain desirable and superior traits for certain specific athletic endeavors, then I'm fine with that. But for anyone to quote references such as an author (SF Examiner article) who claims that asians dominate gymnastics because they have greater flexibity is more than silly but idiotic.
A great gymnast not only requires flexibility, but also muscular strength, neuromuscular coordination, and balance
which also are prerequisites for many sports. Also the Chinese have dominated elite gymnastics or have been able to compete at that level, but other asian countries do not even come close. They simply don't have the teams because the Chinese communist govt made an effort to have resources focus on certain sports which gymnastic is one. The Chinese have also focused on track and field and swimming. Women have done well in long distance to some extent and of course swimming.
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Ober,
Good point about genetics vs race. I believe there are obvious distinctions regardless if each individual are largely "identical" to another if you look at a percentage like 99.9%. People have to understand that 10% of a dollar ain't much but 1% of a trillion dollars is far more significant.
Venter believes race is an artificial construct and many of those studying in the field of genetics believe race is an artificial construct. I believe this may be true. Sort of like saying a poodle is distinct from a pitbull from a larger perspective or a perspective of a Venter who's mapping out the human genome, it is not relevant.
I think people are forgetting that though Ober and Mik is asking us to see the obvious but they are also not seeing the obvious which also tells us that race does not exclude one for being born with the prerequisite for being dominate or superior in certain sports. It may mean that asians may have a smaller population to produce the best heavyweight boxing champs or argument sake, but it doesn't mean that being asian excludes that possibility which people tend to ignore or lose focus on.
Athletic performance is not that relevant in terms of survival. Intelligence, social intelligence, physical beauty will get you further in life.
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"has 1/6 the world's population you would expect that 1/6 of the world's inventions would be coming from there, or Africa for that matter. "
Most in Africa or China are poor peasants. Last thing on their mind is playing hoops in the US or are given the education to go to college.Comment
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BIGGIE: Even if I had the time, I'm unsure if I would make a reply to your series of posts. They display a lack of logic, and primarily argument fueled by emotion(ex: statements slandering the articles/sites, without even providing a plausible, logical reason, or disputing the logic & fact/research involved), none else(testosterone.net does print some garbage, but they do print some credible material by some very credible authorities as well. In this case, Dr. Jose Antonio is a widely respected researcher. He's known primarily for his research on hyperplasia). They also display your unfamiliarity with sports science & biomechanics(not your fault, most of the general public is that way), and logical methods of deduction & analysis.
And most importantly, they display that you have a highly limited reading & comprehension ability.
However I do agree with some of the comments you made about the SF examiner...(but it did contain good points as well, nonetheless) The primary reason the chinese are so successful is due to their adoption of the former soviet sports machine system; at a very young age they begin assessing the innate ability of their children and place them in a sports program best suited for their individual traits, training them efficiently beginning while very young.
Ex: Biggie says: "Well, you've made a very natural mistake. One one hand, you're saying nurture is not the key but nature. But then you admit even if genetics can't identify genes that identify certain traits (superior) for certain athletic performance then how can you prove scientifically anything you're arguing? So all you've done is fall back on the anecdotal argument which is of course unscientific. "
Ober says: This one is rediculous. Your post implied you believe genetic traits are not exhibited physically, and/or genetics have absolutely nothing to do with a person's physical traits & appearance. If you believe genetics & genetic analysis only pertain to what's seen in a laboratory slide or microscope, then you have no idea what genetics encompasses as a whole. In your opinion is the reason we resemble our parents, have certain colors of hair, eyes, skin, facial features, physical attributes etc. all a result of up bringing? If I were switched at birth, would that baby grow up to look like me since he was raised in my home? If I grew up in africa would I look black? Why don't south african caucasians look black if this is true? This is an example of either your selective reading(not reading what contradicts or disproves the argument), lack of comprehension, or just both. Right here you are misconstruing my statements for the sake of creating an argument upon something no one ever stated. I never said genetics alone, nor nurture alone dicated athletic performance(genetics are just part of the game) ability. All I said was genetics are the primary dictator in physiological performance POTENTIAL. Do you understand the difference between potential and ability? Apparently not.
Ex: Biggie says:
" I find it ironic that he points out that blacks longer limbs is a detriment to weightlifting. Huh? Most blacks have longer limbs? What about running backs? "
This exemplifies your limited understanding of sport science & biomechanics, and probably why you fail to grasp many of the simple concepts I've mentioned. There are many different types of qualitative strength factors. Maximal weight lifting performance is not an accurate indication of explosive performance capacity. Being a running back is a position highly reliant upon speed & agility. Powerlifting on the other hand, is all about moving as much weight as you can, speed is irrelevant. You also must remember, that strength is highly specific. Classically, strength is the ability to exert force, whereas maximal strength is the ability to exert maximal force under specific conditions. In weightlifting (olympic) speed is a factor, but so is maximal strength. A person with proportionately longer limbs is at a biomechanical disadvantage in a weight classed lifting event, because he must move the weight a farther distance to complete the same movement as other lifters, and the ratio of distal insertion points VS various bone structures does not offer an advantageous mechanical advantage ratio. Hence why midgets perform so well in these sports...(currently, there are 4 midgets holding nat'l titles/current records in powerlifting). But limb length is just one part of the physiological differences I've alluded to that affect sport performance. West african blacks also typically posses proportionately wider shoulders and smaller hips than caucasian, or asian men(Since citing a kinsiological study would be useless in this case, here's some anecdotal food for thought: ever seen a white guy with a build like John Lewis at that height/weight? Now think of how many black guys you've seen with that build a comparable height/weight ratio? Quite a few am I right?) Having proportionately large hips is pretty much a prerequisite to ever become a champion caliber lifter. It confers to many of the biomechanical actions & mechanisms employed in the lifts (primarily hip flexor recruitment & trunk stability).
Biggie says:
", yet now you're admitting that high jumpers rely more on skill.
I'd like to ask how much skill is involved? Isn't there more skill in being a top basketball player? You have to be a decent to great shooter, have great eye to hand coordination, endurance, jumping ability etc. "
If you had read the previous messages by other posters, and thus understood the context in which my statement was made, then perhaps you'd see the obvious misinterperetation & flawed argument. The other poster used a top level white high jumper as an example that whites in general posses relatively equal athletically correlated genetics. My rebuttal alluded to olympic lifters, because while they have a better qualitative strength ability (starting, acceleratory strength) than high jumpers, they are not the best high jumpers because of the skill factor it involves; and I stated that in an attempt to illustrate how using that example discounts too many variables & isn't logically sound enough to bear much weight in debate(and this was without going into the flawed aspect regarding alluding to a single/select few examples to represent an entire population) perhaps I shouldve been more elaborate because there are more factors involved. Height is another one...there is an ideal heigh/power ratio required for optimal performance in the high jump. While a short, stocky guy may have a higher vertical than a taller, thinner, weaker counterpart, he probably doesn't have as good of a potential for that given sport. And, lastly, the blacks with the genes most suitable for high jump performance would probably pursue something more ' profitable,' such as sprinting.(Research has concluded that running speed is not largely correlated with moving your legs fast between steps, but rather applying maximal force to the ground within a brief time frame, and running gait.)
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Biggie says: ""(Ober said)Can you name me one sport where asians or caucasians are the minority at the entry/recreational levels, yet are the overwhelmingly predominant race/ethnic group at the elite level? "
Biggie then said:
Swimming has whites dominating the entry/recreational or high school level and they also dominate the elite levels.
Winter sports tend to have whites dominating. Skiing is a perfect example. Triathlons, pole vaulting, etc
Can you name one sport where blacks are a minority at the entry levels but dominant at the elite level? Uh, typically, you would see any group dominate at the elite levels also dominate at the lower levels. (BIGGIE's comment)"
Ober says: Are you a complete idiot, or did you just not read my entire post? If you understood my statement(is the word minority beyond your vocabulary? Or is simply grasping the logic beyond your mental capacity?), or my previous statements, then you wouldnt have even bothered with making such a post. As for your latter paragraph, I gave examples, plenty in previous posts. I see no reason to waste my time in a thorough, lengthy reply to someone that has such limited comprehension ability and has a highly selective reading ability, such that you won't even read an entire post before opening the c*ock holster.
EX: Biggie said:
"I find it ironic that he points out that blacks longer limbs is a detriment to weightlifting. Huh? Most blacks have longer limbs? What about running backs? They have to be stocky than long limbed. Blacks make poor swimmers because they have lower body fat. This is science?"
Ober says: Do you understand what the word proportional means? Apparently not! (here's where the limited comprehension comes in... in this case vocabulary) Do black runners look stocky to you? Is 6'1/175lbs lbs Michael Johnson a stocky guy in your opinion? What about 5'11/171 lb Ben Johnson? True, excessively tall giants don't particularly perform well at running for several reasons. Neither to "short, stocky" guys. But if measurements & ponderal index of black sprinters are assessed by any credible kinesiologist, and the same is done with sprinters of other races, identical height... the difference is there. There are other structures conferring to more efficient running... but I'll leave those out, since there isn't any point in bringing them up to a person who fuels his arguments with emotion.
Regarding swimmers etc. -Assess the average body fat composition of elite swimmers in competition season, or look at the data assessed over many years. They definately aren't the leanest athletes around. Lean, but not exactly 'ripped." In sport/exercise science, we know that for some certain possible causes(there are various theories, depending on which school of thought you chose) people who swim regularly display an inordinate tendancy to retain a certain level of subcutaneous body fat. There isn't a top swimmer out there that his 'shredded' or 'ripped' by most people's standards. (those words are vague and a part of pop culture, and can mean different things depending on who you ask). Buoyancy up to a point helps a swimmer. When less of his body is being dragged in the current of water, there's less friction. While you may say "well I know lots of fast black swimmers that can beat the pants off of me!"....keep in mind that at the elite level, the difference between first and third, or 5th, or 10th place can be a second to a fraction of a second. This is when genetic potential comes into play...where those seemingly insignificant nuances make the difference.
Biggie says: " What you haven't proven is shown how blacks have done better when money, cultural affinity, etc can be discounted? Youhaven't but you claimed you have"
Ben & Michael Johnson grew up in upper middle class & upper class families(Ben's parents = multimillionaires). Several pro football & basketball players(black) grew up in upper middle class/upper class families. Likewise, there are many that came from low income families... Why is it the top 500 all-time records in 100m sprint times are held ENTIRELY by blacks athletes?
Biggie says: " they(mik, Ober) are also not seeing the obvious which also tells us that race does not exclude one for being born with the prerequisite for being dominate or superior in certain sports. "
Ober says: I never meant to imply that belief, nor did I ever say " if you are X race you will never do well in Y sport"
And if I offended you with many of my comments, it wasn't my intention. Any slander said above was for the sake of rhetoric/humor, nothing else.
[Edited by Oberleutnant on 02-20-2001 at 10:43 PM]Comment
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Originally posted by BIGGIE
"has 1/6 the world's population you would expect that 1/6 of the world's inventions would be coming from there, or Africa for that matter. "
Most in Africa or China are poor peasants. Last thing on their mind is playing hoops in the US or are given the education to go to college.
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Yet many poor Asian many countries have the time and energy to kick white's asses in math scores.
With Africa I guess it come down to the circular arguement:
"They are unproductive because they are poor vs.
They are poor because they are unproductive"
I think to some extent these two things feed off eachother and can become a bit of a vicious circle, but I've seen to many poor people (white and asian) come to America and make very good lives for themselves to believe the excuse that "they are unproductive because they are poor".
Let me give you an example of a exceedingly poor Nation that has pulled itself up out of incredable poverty.
Ireland was one of the poorest Nations around less than 50 years ago. Through sheer will power they have pulled themselves up to become probably the greatest producers of Software (aside from the U.S.) in the world. Their economy is booming so much that (what must have seemed unthinkable a generation ago) has happened, many Irish people from the U.S are going back to Ireland to live and work. A tremendous irony if you know your history. Ireland is an incredable success story, and it is not alone (remember that all European nations Germany, Britain, France were at one time highly impoverished, if you go back far enough), yet they were able to make good through thier ablilities and determination. One might expect that if all people are exactly the same that there would be at least one predominantly black Nation or even area in the world that would be doing o.k for itself, but this is not the case. Whether it is Africa or the new world (i.e Haiti, Jamaica, etc.) they have tremendous problems wherever they go. This should not be the case if all people are equal, I would love some Liberal to please explain this to me.
And what happens when the peoples who occupy 3rd world nations (black) are put in the same country with the people who occupy 1st and 2nd world nations (white), (of course there are other peoples in the U.S. but I'll just talk about the 2 major groups for right now), you have areas of the country which the blacks occupy which are in 3rd world conditions, and areas which whites occupy which are mostly 1st and 2nd world conditions (don't give me 1 or 2 exceptions to this rule, we all know this is the case almost 100% of the time). But when they are in one Nation, what starts to happen is that the gov't takes from the 1st world community in a vain attempt to bring the 3rd world to 1st world conditions. FACT: The American taxpayers have spent over $2.5 TRILLION trying to upgrade Blacks since the l960's. (1). And I would not mind that if I thought there was even a little improvement, but I don't see any, (see jail populations, illegitimacy rates, graduation rates, what our public schools have turned into etc.) I would spend 5 times that amount if I thought it would fix the problem, but it will not, you can spend any amount, but you cannot force the horse to drink. You think things are bad now, (with our jail population booming, taxes to pay for these things etc.), wait 20 years, as whites become the minority. The U.S. will become very similar to South Africa, even worse. At some point we need to come the the obvious realization that this melting pot is not working, and if we do not the U.S as we know it will not survive another 30 years, and you can take that to the bank! If you know any history at all you will know that you cannot hold such different peoples together through intimidation and propaganda alone, (see Yugoslavia, Habsburg Empire etc.) Those who think that the U.S is somehow exempt from this and that everything will be O.K if we just live in denial and pretend, ha!, talk to me in 30 years, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong, maybe if we spend another 2.5 trillion they will suddenly change and everthing will be O.K., but I just don't believe this will happen, and I don't see how anyone who is honest with his or herself can believe this will ever happen either (i.e the previous 2.5 trillion has gotten us very few results), I guess we'll have to wait and see, but (even as I hope and pray that everthing will work itself out) I see trouble ahead.
1.Buckley, William F. syndicated column, Jan. 5. 1993Comment
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A Response I found
Mik_36
Hi, I was reading your post here and I remember reading a similar thread on the Kung fu forum the other day. The author of this post is named KickingMantis and I give him full credit for this response to America's urban situation.
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When Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, it freed the slaves on paper, where were they to go? how were they to get there? how were they going to care for themselves and their families, all they knew was working on a plantation and in the field. The government that allowed Slavery and brought millions of slaves to this country to work this land didnt give them reparations, pay or etc.., they were on their own to fend for themselves there was no mass contributions similiar to what has been done to the Japanese and now the Jewish people.
So this created ghettos and slums in every major city in the USA of Black People of African heritage coming to the cities of the north tring to find any kind of work in a hope to be free, live a better life and provide for their families, only to find obstacle after obstacle. Slavery doesnt stop by signing a federal legal document in a day. It doesnt free people from the institution of slavery that had been going on for hundreds of years. These people although they are free physically have to now learn to free their minds. which takes a long time to do to. It has only been since the sixties when discrimination against people of color was legal that is only 40 something years ago.
You cant expect people that have been stripped of who they are, enslaved, segregated, and discriminated against for more than almost 500 years to all of a sudden in approximately 40 years to change as a people as a WHOLE the way they think and be outstanding and bear equal amounts of fruits as people that are of the majority that committed the segregation, slavery, discrimination, stripping, rape, hangings, castrations, scientific experiments and etc..,
And these people are constantly reminded of their color every single day, no matter how hard they try to do the RIGHT WHITE THING! They will never be, and some try very hard. So can you blame them for being a little sensitive about the race thing?
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Hi,
I completely agree that Blacks have been wronged with Slavery, but you need to talk to the decendents of plantation owners and slave traders in Africa (Black and White) about reparations, not me, nor anybody else whose skin happens to be white, but had nothing to do with slavery. The profits from slavery still exist in the decendents of wealthy plantation owners, but Liberals don't want to mess with them, no, they are to powerful, instead they want us working class whites to pay for all this crap, when we had nothing to do with any of it, and if we had benefited from slavery don't you think that my father would have had enough money that he would not have had to work in a factory for 40 years (i.e my Ancestors were across the Atlantic at the time of slavery)? American Blacks standard of living is about 1000 times greater than that of Africans and that is why, despite all their complaining about how awful white people are, they don't go back. I mean, if they are treated so badly here, why don't they just go back to Africa? Because they know that their lives would be 10 fold worse off there, than here. No, they want the best of both worlds, they want the standard to living in the 1st world, and collect all the benefits of that life, while at the same time they want to constantly hammer on whites about what terrible people we are, and how we are responsible for any problems they have. If it is so bad, leave! If everyone is equal, as Liberals say, then there should be no change in standard of living between a Blacks living here, as opposed to Africa, so all things being equal the choice would be clear, if I was Black I would go to Africa where I am the majority. But all things are not equal and they know it, their lives would be hell if they went back to Africa (the standard of living there is back in the stone age), so they choose to stay here. I want to make clear that I do have simpathy for Blacks in regard to them being Slaves (a terrible thing for a people to go through), but I am not responsible for that, I have no relations that were plantation owners, so why is it my responsibility to compensate them, I work like a dog for every penny I earn and I don't think I owe anyone anything, period. I think that the decendents of slaves have lived so much better than they would have otherwise (if they had been left in Africa) that they have already had alot of compensation they deserve come their way. But the fact is that if Blacks want compensation they need to go to the source, decendents of plantation owners (who could have gotten peasants from Europe to work their fields but instead took the greedy way and got slaves instead, you don't have to pay slaves right, where as you would have to pay some small wages if you hired poor whites). I refuse to pay and pay and pay and pay for something I had nothing to do with. They need to start to have a life as good or as bad as they are willing to work for, and they are capable of having, instead of expecting others to pay.Comment
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Hi Mik,
I can only speculate on the intent of the author of the quote I posted. I really don't believe that he was talking about reperations, he was talking more on affirmative action, building up the black community and the expectations put upon them. I read your earlier post and you stated that America spent such and such an amount of money on black programs and that you wouldn't even mind if you saw some change ( I'm paraphrasing). Like I stated, it's only been 40 years since the last form of legisilation against blacks were dissolved. Compared to the almost 500 years of brutality against them, it doesn't seem that long. You talk about the blacks going back to Africa, why should they. A lot of this country was built on there backs, it's as much theres as it is anybodies.
I also have to ask, you've spoken about this problem; it's obviously been bothering you for some time. What have you tried to do remedy it. I sternly believe that a person does not have the right to complain unless they are prepared to do something about the situation.Comment
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Hi RobB,
First I wanted to address something you said before "some of them try very hard", paraphrasing what you said about some of them trying very hard to get along in this society.
You are correct, I have met black people whom I liked very very much and I believe tried to do the right things on a daily basis. I also think that there are millions of these kinds of black people in Africa and places like Haiti etc.. But the fact is that in order to have a civilization you must have the overwhelming majority of people wanting to do the right things, most of the time. Otherwise you have anarchy, even though there are blacks who are very good citizens.
I feel sorry for these people but I should feel no more obligated to financially support these kind of black people in America than I should to support these kind of black people in Haiti, Congo, etc. I feel this is one of the reasons why people get so emotional when someone questions black's ability to live in a modern society, because they know a black person that they like very much, who is a very good and decent person. I know black people like this also, but unfortunately I feel they are the exception, not the rule (i.e approx 50% of all Black males will be arrested and charged with a serious felony during their lifetime).
I believe that if blacks want to stay here then they are obligated not to constantly complain about how terrible America is, i.e if it is that bad, leave. (I addressed this before), but regardless they must start to pay their own way, pay for their own schooling, policing, etc.
-What have I (personally) done to try to remedy this situation? I feel that it is no more my reponsibility to remedy the situation for blacks here in America then it is to remedy the situation for blacks in Africa. Despite that I have been forced to pay for their education, their policing, their jailing, and I have put up with the fact that I can't leave my house at night (and it is not very safe in the day either) and I won't be able to send my kids to public schools, they were some of the best schools in the world back in the 50's, now they are not fit to walk in, let alone learn in. If you want me to donate more of my money and/or time to their community, sorry, but I deem that a waste of time and money, you cannot help people who do not want to be helped, or refuse to help themselves.
I believe the blacks in America need to be treated the same as blacks in the rest of the world, (i.e. allowed to rise and fall according to their own determination and/or skills). They are not owed something from now until the end of time because someone made them slaves 400 years ago. And if they are still owed anything it is not by me (like I said before). I believe the best way for this to be done (in the long term) is for them to be given thier own land to form their own country : " Abraham Lincoln actually proposed an amendment to the constitution that would've authorized congress
to recolonize all freed Blacks back to Africa. On Aug.
15, l962, Congress did appropriate over half a million
dollars for that purpose. Thousands of Negroes had
been sent back when Lincoln was shot"
In fact the Nation of Islam also want this type of scenario to take place. I believe it is best for all involved if we part ways and allow a people to develope naturally, and as far as they want to work for.
Rob B. - you seem like a very reasonable and nice guy, what would be so wrong with having a people determine their own fate, and go as far as they are willing to work for. If we are all the same they should have no problems making and running their own Nation, right?.Comment
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I really can't believe what I'm reading
You say you feel that the blacks in America should be treated no differently than the blacks all around the world. This I have a real problem with, first of all the blacks here are not African anymore; alot of there families can be traced back to the 1600's here in America and yet you seem to consider them less American than white people who's families came to this country much later. The blacks living in this country are first and foremost American; alot of this country was bulit with there blood, sweat and tears. It's as much there country as it ours; and for you to insuate that this country somehow belongs to us whites and we are letting them stay here is extremely offensive.
Reading your post again, and hearing you talk about the problems with crime; I was thinking maybe it's not black people you have a problem with, just bad people in general. You even stated that there were alot of hardworking, honest black people that you liked. Black people do not have a monoply on bad behavior, that's as prejudice as anything I've ever heard; bad people come in all shapes, sizes and yes colors. For you to be consistent with your beliefs, you must also now condemn all the white people that cause social disorder as well. Should we send that back to there country of origin, send them back to Europe as well.
Once again, I state this nation belongs to all of us. Native,white, black, asian etc. We are all Americans.
Now can't we all just get along
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