Arum not ultimate fight fan

[bigred389]

Uke also seems to be completely ignoring the grapplers who have transitioned in MMA to develop very competitive standup.

And this is from the perspective of someone who started out entirely in striking styles btw.

Fedor outstruck Crocop and started out in sambo(judo)
Both of the Nogs are good boxers, but started in BJJ
Liddell was a wrestler at first
Ditto for Gomi
Ditto Jens Pulver
Ditto Kid Yamamoto
Mach Sakurai was a judoka
BJ Penn has been getting KOs left and right
Matt Serra just KOd GSP, a Kyokushin background guy
Denis Kang was originally a BJJ guy

The list could go on and on...

[Uke]

First off, no athlete who is competing in a sport where they still believe that they have a chance to make millions will leave that sport for the chump change that MMA offers. Period. MMA demands more work in that it allows for more ranges, which for combat athletes who have already devoted years of training into boxing is going after more for less.

That why your simple minded ass can't figure out why the hordes of boxers aren't rushing in to NHB events, jubaji. You know so little but you try to stretch your bullshit wide enough so that it appears to make sense. If what I say was so weak in terms of logic, then why isn't NHB the dominant sport? Why do the athletes get so little respect from other professional athletes? Its because they don't have to be MMA experts to know a sloppy brawl when they see one. Sure, they'll pay to watch two guys beat the shit out of each other, buut are they leaving awed by some inspiring display of skill? Hell no, and people go on record to say that very thing often.

I don't think that learning takedown defense and submission defense is very easy, or that it can be learned in a day. I do think that its easier to learn than to learn how to be a proficient striker. Many would agree on that. You probably won't as you've never once displayed any understanding of striking in anything you've written.

Somehow you seem to think that I've suggest that a boxer will come in and beat a wrestler as wrestling. I didn't imply that. What I did say is that if a boxer could defend well enough takedown to stay effective on his feet with striking I believe that the tide in MMA would change, just as it did when Maurice Smith proved that submission wrestlers struggle once they can't get you on the floor. Boxers with good or better than good power would give MMA fighters fits because they are great at their one craft, which would put them at an advantage once they trained in takedown defense and learned to deal with low, muay thai styles kicks. James Warring and Laverne Clarke, two shitty boxers, came in and had quite a few wins without really employing any real submissions aside from a RNC which is standard for a street fight.

Now if Laverne Clark could do as well as he's done, a real boxer with real power would be 10 times as better. By boxing standards, Clark is the bottom. I could just imagine what a guy like Kostya Tszyu would do, as he's known for one punch KO's.

I didn't agree with Arum on all points and my intent wasn't to support his arguments. He did make a few good points though.

I did not say that conditioning wasn't important nor did I say that it wasn't important to be well trained. Those factors can only help you. I did however say that in order to use sportive methods you HAVE to be in top shape. The methods require more athleticism and more work effort to execute. That's a fact that's beyond you and apparently some others.

As far as me writing 10 pages of the same shit ... I could write 20 pages if felt like it. At least there would be substance to what I write and I could stay on topic. I, unlike you, don't have to create thread after thread and take polls in 10 different topics to show that I do more than take up space. Its all you can do to not get banned. You start threads about China and Sumo wrestling but never EVER dare venture so far as to put your technical knowledge, if you have any, on display like I and people like Boar and Mike Brewer have where it can be scrutinized. Instead you talk around topics instead of talking about them. I haven't suggested that my statements are the "gospel" truth, but you need to exaggerate in that manner in order to seem like your post wasn't just more fluff. Way to to put that English degree to work.

Keeping following me around this site, from topic to topic, critiquing what I write instead of writing anything worth reading yourself. Its what you do best!

For the rest of you out there aside from this obsessed simpleton, I do not think boxers are invincible. I do however feel that they, like other dominant champions in MMA, fit the criteria that these champions all fit. They have mastered one aspect which makes them incredibly formidable. With training in takedown defense and much sparring, over the course of a year you'd see boxers doing big and great things in MMA.

Bigred389, I don't ignore those fighters. I applaud their efforts to improve their game and have said that before. However, I don't agree that they have reached a level of competitive striking outside MMA events. To say that their standup skills are competitive begs the question "Against who?" Within MMA events, I'd have to agree, but outside MMA I would strongly disagree. MMA fighter don't do well in striking competitions to justify that statement.

I agree that Fedor outstruck Cropcop. I also mentioned earlier that Crocop has become limited in that he only uses his left leg. Crocop has never been known as a formidable puncher, but he used to at least use punches to set up his kick. Now he just telegraphs it, and that's why so many have been able to avoid and counter it.

7r14ngL3Ch0k3, Mark Hunt is getting beat by grapplers. Why? Because he's not a grappler and doesn't pretend to be one. He may practice some sub defenses, but not extensively as he makes many mistakes that even the decent MMA grapplers could take advantage of once on the ground. Also note that Mark Hunt is not in shape. Yosuke Nishijima was able to use his rudimentary boxing skills to really hold his own against Hunt. Not only was he frustrating Hunt, but Hunt was wheezing from being tired because of his poor conditioning. If he dedicated himself to his conditioning and some takedown and sub defense he'd be 3 times the fighter that he is now.

[jubaji]

First off, no athlete who is competing in a sport where they still believe that they have a chance to make millions will leave that sport for the chump change that MMA offers. Period. That why your simple minded ass can't figure out why the hordes of boxers aren't rushing in to NHB events.

A boxer not good enough to make much at all in boxing might find the 'chump change' of MMA relatively attractive, especially since according to you they would have such an overwhelming advantage (after 'just' taking care of the little details of learning kicks, takedowns, submissions, etc.)

Still confused? Stay after school for remedial math.

why isn't NHB the dominant sport?

Why isn't any sport "the dominant sport"? MMA is a fast growing sport, that's for sure.

Why do the athletes get so little respect from other professional athletes?

They don't. They "get so little respect" from repetitious agenda-monkeys like you.

I don't think that learning takedown defense and submission defense is very easy, or that it can be learned in a day. I do think that its easier to learn than to learn how to be a proficient striker.

Of course you think that, and you also think that because you think so it must be so.

I did however say that in order to use sportive methods you HAVE to be in top shape. The methods require more athleticism and more work effort to execute.

Yes, you've repeated this mantra a million times already. Its still not true, and it still doesn't get you off the hook for being an out-of-shape, uncoordinated theory-boy.

As far as me writing 10 pages of the same shit ... I could write 20 pages if felt like it.

Now, that I believe!


I

ts all you can do to not get banned.

Yeah! I'm in a panic over it.

You start threads about China and Sumo wrestling

Yeah, do you like them?

but never EVER dare venture so far as to put your technical knowledge, if you have any, on display

Oh, I wouldn't say that. I don't go out of my way to aggrandize myself at every turn (and in turn make an ass of myself) the way you do though.

I haven't suggested that my statements are the "gospel" truth,

LOL! Now that's funny! That's the basic premise of every fuckin' thing you post (and repeat and repeat and repeat)

Way to to put that English degree to work.

I'm sorry, I don't have an English degree. Let's see: got one in Philosophy, one in Political Science, and a Master's in Linguistics, but nope, no English degree. Sorry about that.

[DickHardman]

ukes posts are pretty entertaining because he ALWAYS makes statements about others that just really couldnt apply to anyone better than himself. heres a few examples........

You know so little but you try to stretch your bullshit wide enough so that it appears to make sense.

lol........

You probably won't as you've never once displayed any understanding of striking in anything you've written.

another one....

I haven't suggested that my statements are the "gospel" truth, but you need to exaggerate in that manner in order to seem like your post wasn't just more fluff. Way to to put that English degree to work.

another good one, except you are kinda right uke, jubaji is really in the wrong line of work if language skills are supposed to be his specialty.....

[bigred389]

Bigred389, I don't ignore those fighters. I applaud their efforts to improve their game and have said that before. However, I don't agree that they have reached a level of competitive striking outside MMA events. To say that their standup skills are competitive begs the question "Against who?" Within MMA events, I'd have to agree, but outside MMA I would strongly disagree. MMA fighter don't do well in striking competitions to justify that statement.

I agree that Fedor outstruck Cropcop. I also mentioned earlier that Crocop has become limited in that he only uses his left leg. Crocop has never been known as a formidable puncher, but he used to at least use punches to set up his kick. Now he just telegraphs it, and that's why so many have been able to avoid and counter it.

OK...but then the strikers who "learn" grappling in MMA wouldn't be competitive in top tier grappling competitions out of MMA such as the ADCC. It goes both ways. MMA is about trying to be as good as possible in all aspects.

And Nishijima was a HUGE flop, getting submitted by Phil BARONI of all people. Here's a former pro alphabet soup organization boxing champion who, in three fights, couldn't develop adequate takedown defense to protect himself from the likes of Santos(who was fed to him as a stand and bang guy but who ended up GNPing him), Baroni, even Hunt(though Hunt is a big guy). Couldn't beat up Yoshida before he took him down and choked him out either.

I don't know how you could say Crocop was never a formidable puncher after he shattered Bob Sapp's eye orbital with a punch in K-1.
He beat down Wanderlei Silva throroughly using just his punches....he threw about 3 kicks in that fight. Did pretty much the same to Barnett later that night.
You'd also know he's not exactly limited to his left leg either, unless you've only seen him fight in the UFC.

Also not sure what makes you think Mark Hunt isn't in shape. The guy comes in ready to fight, and performs well. Certainly didn't gas against Fedor for example...if anything, Fedor was the one looking desperate in that fight. He might not "look" fit, but he performs as required.

Not really even sure what your point is.

Oh, and K-1 kickboxing and leg kicks alone has given boxers plenty of trouble. Much less the other aspects of Muay Thai such as knees, clinch, or elbows.
What makes you think they'd immediately become amazing wrestlers?

And Cintron's wrestling credentials seem to be questionable.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Man, i dont even know why you posted this thread. Who gives a shit what that guy thinks (maybe you do, i dunno), his opinion is a dime a dozen.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

thaformula.com - Now you have trained boxers and MMA fighters, when you made the switch to MMA fighters, what did you think about the striking aspect in MMA?

Juanito Ibarra - I think it's underrated. I think a lot of guys in MMA they go and watch tapes and buy boxing books and they figure they can box. Some hire boxing coaches, but I'm telling you, you can't teach an MMA guy true boxing. That's why I call my art "MMA Boxing" because there is things that you don't want to teach your MMA student and if you do and they get good at it, they are susceptible to other things that MMA guys do.

[Bruce_Fan]

Uke,

You made a really interesting point in this thread as well as in the “Iceman vs. Rampage” thread. http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...ad.php?t=24843


I thought about what you said, and it’s true.

Most MMA guys train in all ranges, and many of them are trained to be mediocre in 4 ranges of combat. The guys who do dominate the sport have achieved mastery in at least one area, and then have added dimensions to their game.

Outside of a select few individuals, most MMA striking is piss-poor unfortunately, but I hope as the sport gains popularity, this will change.

A boxer wouldn’t stand a chance in the Octagon. But imagine how good they’d be if they were trained in the other ranges. I happened to see the “Legendary Nights” HBO special about Marvelous Marvin Hagler recently. Imagine if you took a guy like Hagler in his prime, threw some knees & elbows into his repertoire, taught him take down defense and submission escapes.

Teach him the ground game, perhaps get his Jiu Jitsu level to about a blue or purple belt, the same level where Cro Cop and Wanderlei Silva are (Note: Yes, I know Wanderlei Silva has been awarded a black belt, but talk to a BJJ expert, and they’ll tell you he is at a purple/blue belt level).

How scary do you think he’d be in MMA sports competition? He’d be a force to be reckoned with. Same thing goes for heavy weights like Foreman/Frazer/Ali/Marciano/Tyson, etc…. It’d make a hell of a show. Not only you have guys who an extreme level of mastery, but guys whose raw athleticism overshadows the rest by far.

Will it ever happen? Perhaps if the UFC paydays start increasing and Dana White decides to pay a bit more money, we’ll get to see this.

Anyway, I read this forum about once every 3 weeks because that’s all I can tolerate, and I haven’t posted in probably 3 years. You made some really good points and I’d suspect that there are a lot of people like me who enjoy reading interesting point of views, but don’t really care to post on internet forums about martial arts.

Don’t become discouraged. Keep up the good work and the well-thought out posts coming.


Uke wrote:

I've also been saying for years here that the best competitors in MMA events aren't MMA fighters. Crocop, Fedor, Nogueira, and most of the best are traditional martial artists. They specialize in a range and use it to compensate in other areas, while adding other ranges to be competitive.

The reason that I bring this up is because MMA creates its own fighters nowadays(or at least since they abandoned the old format of style vs style) by having the veterans teach young guys those same poor boxing and kickboxing skills, and throw in some BJJ/submission wrestling to round it all out. Yet, the best of the best are always the guys who have learned how to master one style/method and work on it for years. Later on, they add on things to be able to compete well like in the case of Nogueira adding on boxing, or Crocop adding on takedown defense and some subs.