Wingchunner fights in amateur NHB

[Thai Bri]

You said I completely misunderstood by implying that you think you can transition from one art to the other - and then you went onto explain how you can transition from one art to the other.

You are totally missing the depth of these arts. Each has their own tactics and strategies, their own methods of movement even.

No, most MMA guys do not study lots of different arts and then let them just all mix together in a fight. Most now study MMA. They blend moves together. There is no transition needed. They have already taken the most useful bits from Boxing, Wrestling, Thai, BJJ etc. and been training the results.

Yep, you'll always find someone at a BJJ club (for example) to get a little more depth in one particular area - but that is about it.

And, of course, not many of those great MMA guys quote Wing Chun as being in that mix.

[Red Rum]

You are totally missing the depth of these arts. Each has their own tactics and strategies, their own methods of movement even.

No, most MMA guys do not study lots of different arts and then let them just all mix together in a fight. Most now study MMA. They blend moves together. There is no transition needed. They have already taken the most useful bits from Boxing, Wrestling, Thai, BJJ etc. and been training the results.

Yep, you'll always find someone at a BJJ club (for example) to get a little more depth in one particular area - but that is about it.

And, of course, not many of those great MMA guys quote Wing Chun as being in that mix.

First off, I would completely disagree by your wing chun comment!!

Alan Orr is MMA and his main art is wing chun! Kevin Chan has large involvement with the MMA world (UFC, Pride, etc) and his main art is wing chun! There are numerous fighters around the world (Bosteppi) which do wing chun as their main art but are MMA

For tournament purposes it is hard to adapt wing chun into sport mode as the rules of these tournaments wipe out half of what wing chun uses.

I can switch from MT to BJJ very quickly and I never train MMA.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying MMA is rubbish, I am just saying that I think if you are going to do MMA you should train the arts separately. This doesn't include sparring before a competition by the way.

[Thai Bri]

Sorry. I thought you were going to refer to the main MMA guys. Not the main WC guys.

Funny how the two never meet in competition, isn't it?

[Red Rum]

Sorry. I thought you were going to refer to the main MMA guys. Not the main WC guys.

Funny how the two never meet in competition, isn't it?

Huh? What are you talking about? Alan Orr has been wiping the floor with other MMA guys. To clarify, there are no WC guys (who use WC alone) that could take out a current MMA fighter under tournament rules.

But there are plenty of fighters who have trained in WC. Like I said, Kevin Chan is mainly wing chun but has outsparred and outfought UFC guys. I know that Bosteppi was claimed to have taken out several challengers from the MMA world. As I have said before, sport is sport. If you want to fight in a tournament with rules, learn a sport based martial art.

And by the way, even you Thai Bri claimed to have trained in WC and you are now MMA.

[Tom Yum]

Sorry. I thought you were going to refer to the main MMA guys. Not the main WC guys. Funny how the two never meet in competition, isn't it?

They have. Some wing chun master fought a wrestling guy with boxing in his background (he was from Canada). The fight took place some time in the late 90's in UFC.

The two squared off.

Wrestler shoots. Gets a text book double leg takedown. Quickly gets side control, launches a few knees, then gets the mount and starts railing punches down.

The end.

But this is the norm for every stand-up vs. grappler match that took place in a MMA venue, from fights like:

Ken Shamrock (Pankration) vs. Pat Smith (K-1 pro)
Royce Gracie (BJJ) vs. Gerard Gordeau (Savate/kickboxing champ)
Dan Severn (Wrestling) vs. Marcus Bosset (Kyokushin karate)
Oleg Taktarov (Sambo) vs. Tank Abbot (boxing-brawling)
Royce Gracie vs. Minoko Ichihara (Shotokan karate master).
Royce Gracie vs. Ron Van Clief (Kempo karate Grandmaster).

All of the above mentioned stand up fighters have knocked guys out with their feet, fists, knees etc. If I'm not mistaken, Van Clief has used his stuff on the streets. Still, they got taken down and submitted by grappling experts.

It wasn't until pro-stand up fighters like Mo Smith cross trained in grappling that they were able to use those striking skills to take out grapplers. This forced grapplers like Gracie to cross train in striking arts, like Hapkido to stay alive.

The lesson in MMA is that better prepaired fighter is usually the most well-rounded fighter

[Red Rum]

I think people are talking about wing chun vs. MMA here. Without a doubt MMA will always win. Wing chun is a stand up art that lacks grappling, lacks long range fighting. It is designed for close range power.

Even the Gracies don't go in with just BJJ, becuse they know that there is a chance they will get knocked out or clipped

It is ridiculous to think that wing chun will beat every art in a cage

As I have said, wing chun has its uses and a lot of people train it to develop close quarter power or sensitvity which enhances the ability to grapple in BJJ/Wrestling etc.

My original comments were about wing chun fighters training in other arts. I have won low level bare knuckle tournaments here in the UK using a combo of wing chun, MT, BJJ and CKD. Despite me using a lot of wing chun, it doesn't mean that wing chun is the best art around. It just means that it is another tool that I use.

[Thai Bri]

First off, I would completely disagree by your wing chun comment!!

Alan Orr is MMA and his main art is wing chun! Kevin Chan has large involvement with the MMA world (UFC, Pride, etc) and his main art is wing chun! There are numerous fighters around the world (Bosteppi) which do wing chun as their main art but are MMA

And these people have won what championships?

[Red Rum]

And these people have won what championships?

I don't know! Look it up on Google!! I know Alan Orr has won a few competitions, Kevin Chan won't go into UFC competitions as a competitor for his own reasons (despite having judged many UFC fights).

As for myself I have won 3 bare knuckle tournaments, 2 open MMA tournaments and four non-open kung fu/MMA tournaments
But these were not as prestigious as UFC or Pride!!!

You would be surprised how many UFC fighers have actually done wing chun previously. On Wing Chun Fighters Forum, someone listed all the competitors and even I didn't think there would be that many.

I think you are trying to suggest that wing chun is rubbish because it hasn't gone into UFC and won a championship.
As you know and as I have said previously, this would never happen with wing chun because the UFC rules strip a wing chun figter of most of his moves
If you asked how many streetfights have been won through wing chun, that would be a different debate, where wing chun would be one of the better arts.

[Thai Bri]

I am suggesting that Wing Chun has not given anyone any particular help in winning any major championship. I would not be surprised if some great champions had done WC in the past. They would have tried all kinds of arts. But I would be amazed if they were still doing it. Care to name any who still do?

Early UFCs did not disallow all those deadly WC moves. The only supposed WC guy to make any impact whatsoever (and it wasn't much of an impact) weighed over 300lbs - hardly Ng Mui size! Haw haw haw!

And present day fighters could all use WC stances, Chi Sau, all those fancy blocks, simultaneous blocks and attacks etc. etc. But they do not. Why is that? Could it be that they only "work" in the confines of a class full of people who work with each other to help make it "work?"

And, like I keep saying, even the WC guys in these tiny fringe competitions use Wing Chun that looks nothing like Wing Chun.

As for how many streetfights that have been won with Wing Chun? Now we're yet again into the world of the fanciful that never seems to be particularly well corroborated. We'll be on rooftops in Hong Kong again soon.

[Red Rum]

I am suggesting that Wing Chun has not given anyone any particular help in winning any major championship. I would not be surprised if some great champions had done WC in the past. They would have tried all kinds of arts. But I would be amazed if they were still doing it. Care to name any who still do?

Early UFCs did not disallow all those deadly WC moves. The only supposed WC guy to make any impact whatsoever (and it wasn't much of an impact) weighed over 300lbs - hardly Ng Mui size! Haw haw haw!

And present day fighters could all use WC stances, Chi Sau, all those fancy blocks, simultaneous blocks and attacks etc. etc. But they do not. Why is that? Could it be that they only "work" in the confines of a class full of people who work with each other to help make it "work?"

And, like I keep saying, even the WC guys in these tiny fringe competitions use Wing Chun that looks nothing like Wing Chun.

As for how many streetfights that have been won with Wing Chun? Now we're yet again into the world of the fanciful that never seems to be particularly well corroborated. We'll be on rooftops in Hong Kong again soon.

Are you joking? Haven't I just said that Alan Orr is a wing chun guy who uses primarily wing chun to win tournaments and competitions??! That is just off the top of my head. There are wing chunners up and down the country who enter tournaments. I went to Gracie and found that one of the chief instructors trained for a very long time in wing chun and still uses it in his MMA!!

Early UFC's did disallow a lot of moves, but as I have said, it is still a sport event, wing chun is not.

As for the streetfights, Kevin Chan uses wing chun extremely well and is well respected for it. If you read his Geoff Thompson interview (on the Kamon website) he tells about his days fighting off idiots in his Chinese restaurant when he was younger

For my fights, I am hoping that my word is good enough here. If not, then why believe anything that anyone posts?

Your idea of wing chun makes me laugh Thai Bri. You always claim that wing chun vids 'look nothing like wing chun'. It makes me doubt that you have been to a wing chun school at all. Or that your teachers were teaching you nonsense.

Just like a lot of karate differs from school to school, so does wing chun.
There is no 'one wing chun system'.

[Thai Bri]

Nonsense.

We've done the Alan Orr thing to death. He hasn't won anything particularly worth winning yet, and the "Wing Chun" he uses in those fights looks nothing like the Wing Chun he teaches in a Win Chun class.

You "went to Gracie" whatever that means? Do you mean you went to a Gracie JJ school? Who is this guy that uses his WC in his MMA? Can we see a film of him? Will it include those fanciful blocks and simultaneous blocks and attacks?

We've also done Kevin Chan to death. Again, he's the guy who has incorprated KickBoxing and BJJ into his version of Wing Chun. His version. Again, its a version that looks like WC in demos, but looks like Kick Boxing and BJJ when fighting.

I went to a Wing Chun school that taught Wing Chun. But even they started to branch out into other arts.

It seems to me that Wing Chun only "works" when it looks, feels, tastes, sounds and reeks of Kick Boxing and BJJ! So much for Wing Chun!

[Red Rum]

Thai Bri - why don't you argue with the guys on here. They are all for seeing wing chun in the cage etc

http://wingchunfightclub.org/

You'll get on like a house on fire....

[Red Rum]

Nonsense.

We've done the Alan Orr thing to death. He hasn't won anything particularly worth winning yet, and the "Wing Chun" he uses in those fights looks nothing like the Wing Chun he teaches in a Win Chun class.

We've also done Kevin Chan to death. Again, he's the guy who has incorprated KickBoxing and BJJ into his version of Wing Chun. His version. Again, its a version that looks like WC in demos, but looks like Kick Boxing and BJJ when fighting..

Again you are telling a person what art he is doing. If he does an art and says that is wing chun I tend to go with that. It might look like another art, but Orr says its wing chun and has no reason to lie.

If you posted a video on this site of you fighting, I could claim that your art was a derivative of Kempo. It would be utter nonsense, but it would be hard to argue against it.

You have claimed that Kevin Chan also doesn't use wing chun in his fighting. I'm beginning to see a trend here....
Any wing chun that works, you dismiss as none wing chun, even though the people doing the fighting have stated categorically that they do wing chun

I have seen Orr in action (in person) and have to say that he is an awesome fighter and could take me apart using his wing chun, no matter what I threw at him

You "went to Gracie" whatever that means? Do you mean you went to a Gracie JJ school? Who is this guy that uses his WC in his MMA? Can we see a film of him? Will it include those fanciful blocks and simultaneous blocks and attacks?..

Yes it was a school at the Roger Gracie academy and it was a high ranking student. He didn't give any clue to his lineage but rolled hands with me and was very good

I went to a Wing Chun school that taught Wing Chun. But even they started to branch out into other arts.

It seems to me that Wing Chun only "works" when it looks, feels, tastes, sounds and reeks of Kick Boxing and BJJ! So much for Wing Chun!

And boxing/MT/BJJ only work in a street confrontation/UFC when accompanied with another art, so what is your point?

Wing chun is a good art and again, Thai Bri, you are letting your own clouded, past experiences sway you.

Get down to Orr's class, James Sinclair's class, Kamon class or Gary McKenzies class. It will open your eyes a bit as to the uses of wing chun.