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TOAS NABARD, persian art of combat

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  • #16
    I'm pretty sure that TOAS Nabard is the real deal.

    I have been to the TOAS school on three separate occasions. Two of those times I actually sat down and talked with Master Sofaku one on one about my own question about his background and training and what he teaches. I meant to take classes there but then I move to a different city. I have since moved back to Pensacola and I went once again to check out the school and sign up for classes. Regrettably, my work schedule change only a few days after getting the money to sign up.

    I found Master Sofaku to be very down to earth and technically oriented. He pointed me to do other research to verify the origins of Martial arts and fully admitted to me at the time that Kung Fu was a major part of the system, but that it was changed to reflect a more useful and practical system for actual self defense. At the time that I was checking out the school is was called TOAS Nabard Kung Fu. That’s even how it is listed in the phone book to this day. However, he has since taken away a lot of the references to this on his web site and I assume in other media, like brochures. But while many of you see this as some kind of fraud, I see this as a vote of confidence in his truthfulness.

    Bruce Lee never called Jeet Kun Do “Jeet Kun Do-Kung Fu” even while fully admitting that he borrowed heavily from Wing Chun. And I certainly don’t think that after over 20 years of further refining his own variations of TOAS Nabard that Master Sofaku should call his School Kung Fu any more either. He only did so to help people who didn’t understand martial arts to figure out what his trained was most likened to from the laymen standpoint. Once again, I see this as a vote of confidence in his honesty, not some hoodwinking of his students. The first time that I met him he was completely honest with me about what he was teaching and why it was called what it was called. I assume that same must be true for others if he has been teaching loyally devoted students for over 20 years in the same location.

    No, I am pretty sure that Master Sofaku is the real deal, because Pensacola is a relatively small city and a big military town. Fly by night “Self Defense” joints come and go here all the time. Some military retiree is always popping open another “Self Defense” place around Pensacola all the time. Meanwhile, Master Sofaku still gains loyal students all the time, many of them from the failed fly by night “Self Defense” places, as he has always done.

    Master Sofaku could have easily called his school, “Self Defense” or simply “Martial Arts” as many other unprofessional places do, but that’s not who Master Sofaku is in my opinion. Instead, he called his school what most people would recognize from a particular arts standpoint. It is much easier to just call yourself “martial arts”, but like Bruce Lee, Master Sofaku told the truth about what he is teaching, why he is teaching it, and where the system originated from.

    People all over this forum often say things like, “I do some JKD and utilize my stick maneuvers from kali” all the time. They often tell people that use this part of a system of martial arts for one thing and then some other system for another. Do you fault them for doing so? Of course not. Here you call that honesty and being forthright, but then you look at Master Sofaku and claim that he is not being honest when he is trying to do the same thing.

    All anyone had to do was read his web site to find out what is going on. His web site is one of the most complete martial arts school web sites that I have ever seen, which is where these videos come from in the first place. But instead of crediting him with going above and beyond and showing actual students of his performing extended routines, you all slam him for being some kind of knock off. If he was just a knock off he would be showing you his students online. Instead, he would be telling to by his book for 20 bucks and some DVD.

    Sometimes it seems you martial arts people are never happy. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I for one would feel honored to take classes from Master Sofaku because he has done a considerable amount of work on his school, his students, and his system. That alone is more than I can say for almost all of the other so called schools that I have seen.

    The schools that I have seen are some empty small room in a strip mall somewhere that doesn’t even have a balancing pole area at all, let alone one outside in the open air. Most places that I have seen don’t even have a building with ceiling in it that are taller than a normal house. How are you to practice pole arm weapons in a 7 foot ceiling room? The answer is that you can’t.

    No, I am pretty darn sure that Master Sofaku is the real deal and one of best friends trained with him for over a year and said the same thing.

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    • #17
      Why people say Nabard is not Kung Fu.

      I apologize Mike, I didn’t really answer your questions about the Kung Fu thing. The reason that many of his students argue the point about “Is Nabard Kung Fu?” is because of the stated origins of Martial Arts itself. You see, most of us think that Kung Fu itself originally came from China, but that isn’t the whole story. The Chinese monks wrote down that a Persian man from India named Bodhidharma as one of the sources that introduced martial arts to the monks.

      The Chinese documents from the emperor list Bodhidharma as a Persian. Now it is commonly understood that this man may have not completely introduced martial arts to China. All countries of antiquity developed some forms of established hand to hand combat techniques. However, it is certain that this Persian was very influential concerning what we now speak of as Kung Fu.

      What Master Sofaku is trying to explain to people is that the original martial arts that came from Persia never died out. In times of antiquity, The Persians were one of the most powerful empires in the known world. They are the ones who fought the now often spoken of 300 Spartans.

      Mater Sofaku is stating that the original Persian Martial arts system was never lost to antiquity and that he has now combined that system with other different forms of combat. That’s why his students often get into the “Kung Fu” debate. They say that Nabard is not Kung fu. What they are trying to say that Nabard is, in essence, the original martial arts that came from Persia. In a simplified manner they are saying that Kung Fu is not Chinese, but instead, really Persian. Historical records do back up this claim. As you can see it is a complicated matter.

      It does beg the question, “If Kung Fu came from a guy called Bodhidharma, a Persian from India, then what was the original Persian or Indian name for the martial arts that he taught the Chinese Monks?” Even the word Kung Fu is a general term that doesn’t necessarily point to a specific martial art. It is also a modern word. It makes sense, given the historical record of Bodhidharma, that the Chinese would give the martial arts a very general name considering that, from its very outset, it was a combination of different fighting techniques from all over the known world. That’s the part that Americans have a hard time understanding that students of Nabard fully understand. The true fact that Kung Fu itself is a compilation of different systems from all around the world escapes most people. It is not a system developed only from china with no other influence from any other martial system.

      Now you can see why Master Sofaku has had such a hard time explaining to people what he is teaching and where it “Really” comes from. Add to that the difficulty of Master Sofaku himself adding different techniques from, let’s say, Kali or Judo (I don’t know if he has done this or not) and you can see why naming his system accurately is very difficult.

      So, is it Kung Fu? Sure, it has elements taken from the original Persian Martial Arts from antiquity that the Chinese integrated into various Chinese martial arts systems. See the difficulty here? Kung Fu is not solely Chinese. That is where the source of this confusion lies. And that is why students of Nabard will say, “No, it’s not Kung fu, Its Persian.” It is because a lot of Kung Fu was learned from a Persian Man from India. But it takes some research and reading to understand the real truth that all martial arts are in essence “Mixed Martial Arts”, even the very old ones from China.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Oestad John View Post
        Where do all martial arts originate?

        I think Martial Arts originated wherever men originated. I think men have been fighting, and trying to win more often, since men have existed.

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        • #19
          Said another way…

          Martial Arts began when Cain killed his own brother Able. These were the first two humans born outside the Garden of Eden. Martial Arts practices have been developing ever since.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Hot_Wings View Post
            Said another way…

            Martial Arts began when Cain killed his own brother Able. These were the first two humans born outside the Garden of Eden. Martial Arts practices have been developing ever since.
            yeah and, paul bunion is this giant lumber jack who had a giant blue ox. and mike mulligan was this dude who had a steam shovel for a friend.

            Comment


            • #21
              HI, a small introduction. I studied at TOAS about 20 years ago when the name was still TOA. I studied w/ master Safakhoo for about 8 years and was a senior student and was used as an "enforcer" to "spank" the tough guys that were unnecessarily rough.

              I missed the early years when the training was harder, but it was still harder than the current training. The story we were told was that Safakhoos' masters master was Chinese. TOA became TOAS because of the modifications he'd made to the system. The forms have changed over the years, sometimes radically.

              I started by enrolling my kids in the school, then one of the other parents suggested that I should join also. After a while I became a confidant, and we invited him over to eat on various occasions as he was very poor at the time. At one point he offered me the school, which I politely declined, as I had 3 kids a wife and other things I wanted to do.

              I periodically check in on him to see how he's doing, and Google TOAS kung fu to see what the latest is. That's when I ran across this thread. After leaving him I went on to pickup forms and techniques from other styles, hung gar, wing chun, baqua, choy li fut, tai chi and a few others. My first martial activity was amateur wrestling, and my last was Capoeira. I've been trying to catch one of the new guys, Tony, as I was told he was very good.

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              • #22
                Well, its sort of like how there is those dojo's that say on the sign "American Karate" ---show US Flag---


                To me it looks the same...

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                • #23
                  I can guarantee that TOAS is not uniquely Persian. In fact, originally "Persian" was used instead of Iranian because of the negative stigma attached to Iran. Safakhoo left Iran shortly after the Shah was deposed. It's Persian only in the sense that BJJ is Brazilian. The clothing, yes, is not Chinese. Nor are the names of the forms and techniques. Which makes sense, since everyone learning the original TOA style was Iranian.

                  It's also most definitely Kung fu. Both because of the meaning of Kung fu, and because it was derived from Chinese martial arts.

                  Mater Sofaku is stating that the original Persian Martial arts system was never lost to antiquity and that he has now combined that system with other different forms of combat. That’s why his students often get into the “Kung Fu” debate. They say that Nabard is not Kung fu. What they are trying to say that Nabard is, in essence, the original martial arts that came from Persia. In a simplified manner they are saying that Kung Fu is not Chinese, but instead, really Persian. Historical records do back up this claim. As you can see it is a complicated matter.
                  During the 8 years I was studying w/ him, this explanation never came up. Neither did students that had been w/ him almost from the beginning, ever recount this story. I'm pretty sure this is just a result of how TOAS has evolved over the years. Safakhoo never had a problem saying that kung fu TOA was derived from Chinese kung fu. His explanation for the change from TOA to TOAS was that TOA was a simple style, and his additions justified the change. A lot of changes were based on business decisions. The core group consisted of about 5 students, but that wasn't enough money coming in to keep the doors open. The training became easier so the new guys would stay longer and finance training for the core group. The last time I checked, students were no longer allowed to kick to the legs while sparring, because someone complained. One of the other students that started before me to this day complains of how the style has been watered down to cater to the noobs, and has no problem saying so to Safakhoo. However, it is a business and something had to be done to keep the new students from leaving to pay for the training of the students that really wanted to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I appreciate your response Mike. I normally direct people to TOAS w/ the following caveat.. The first 2 or 3 years are a testing period. You will be given very little other than forms. The expectation is that if the student is interested enough and dedicated, then they'll think things through, and put a real effort to work things out themselves. The way Safakhoo learned was pretty old school. There was an elevated platform that his master would use to demonstrate a single technique, then leave. The student was expected to pay attention, then work out the difficulties w/ other students. Safakhoo softened the teaching method a bit, as he will, or at least would answer questions and make corrections. However, the expectation is that when enough experience is gained, the student should be able to tell when something isn't quite right. The student should be able to tell when a technique is executed properly.

                    The guys who are studying at TOAS need to be aware that learning is a continuous, long term process. Some people have enough talent that they can be relatively formidable in a couple of years, but for most it will take longer. Also, at least initially, every effort should be made to learn the style as taught, but almost any style will necessitate changes to fit ones personal build, abilities etc. When I sparred, I very rarely used Safakhoos style or strategy, because I was normally the shortest, and smallest one there, excepting the females or kids. However, he liked the way I sparred because I was "sneaky". One of the nice things about developing your own style is that you can incorporate things that work for you. Which is exactly what Safakhoo did w/ TOA.

                    Frankly, I was a bit disappointed w/ the videos. I see a bit too much slop and weakness there. However, it's just PR. It's staged to spark an interest. The "real" stuff comes later. It's on the same level as some of the martial arts demos. When Safakhoo was learning in Iran, they would have periodic demonstrations to attract new students. Same thing here and w/ the web site. Back when I was wrestling, and in my prime, it took me about 3 years before I was really working anywhere near my potential.. And I had a talent for it. Those were the most intense workouts I've ever been through. Much harder than any martial arts training I've been through. New guys have to give it time, and a real effort.

                    In conclusion, TOAS is a bona fide martial art, and kung fu. Not uniquely Persian, but w/ Iranian/Persian influence. It has it's weaknesses, but I think it's one of the best first styles to learn in this area.

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                    • #25
                      Here's a video of some nice Persian art.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Cheech,
                        I'm pretty sure that I know you, based on some things you wrote.
                        Hope you are well. We did some stuff in your backyard a couple of times.
                        (thanks again, by the way)
                        I trained toas for a while myself, mostly after you had already left. Since then I have worked on some other things, but have used toas as my 'base', and still continue to practice certain things from that style.
                        Good to 'see' you again.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Oestad John View Post
                          Look at the history of the region! Between the time period of 6 to 18 century B.C. the Persian encompasses the region of China, Iran, Iraq. During the Persian reign of King Xerxes and Cryus the Great, Persian thought ruled over these areas.

                          TOAS Nabard was intoduced over 25 years ago with the intent to teach martial arts without the forethought that someone will question its origin as Chinese. The martial world seems to accept that kung-fu or any form of martial arts originated from China. I don't believe this notion. Many movies and advertisement over the past 75 years has portray that martial arts has originated from China. People forget the notion that martial arts exist in every country and nation. I'm I suppose to beileved that martial arts is unique only to China! That's crazy. Is Brazilian Judo unique from Japanese Judo? Does tae kwoon do different from Japaneses karate, akido, or shotokan. These examples that martial arts exist in many cultures and nation.
                          If TOAS Nabard first introduced itself as Persian art of Combat nobody would believed it, that Persian has their unique style. It is not plausible or accepted in teaching in America. Nobody would join. Using the term Kung fu made it easier to attract students.
                          If TOAS NAbard introduces itself as the Varzesh-e-Pahlavani (Persian war-training regimen or "sport or exercise of heroes") people would be confused. The public are not so easily accepting of different ideas or of that of other languages or culture.
                          To exemplify Persian ideology, look at the philosophy of Zoroastrianism. The idea of free thought and personal responsibility. This philosophy if someone research it would be surprised in its influences to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and other modem beliefs.
                          Now to figure out TOAS Nabard clothing how it looks Chinese? If you research Persian clothing or culture you will come across literature that " Persians introduce two garments to history of clothings : trousers and seamed fitted coats. Adopted by the Central Asia and northern Europe ...(China, India and Celtic People of Northern Europe) (cited from autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64contentfiles/DecorativeArts/clothing.html)
                          TOAS Nabard is a young style growing slowly but it struggles in demonstrating itself to the world one person at a time. Why is the public so fixated in Chinese thought. All knowledge is unique to every culture and nation, once it is shared where did it began. "To know the truth one must educate themselves of what is true" Ostad John
                          If not our eyes will only see pictures or images of what is true. Thank you for your time and responses.
                          Howdy, John!

                          Hope no one was offended by the beautiful Persian woman performing the dance. Looks like a good workout for someone.

                          I've pulled up several maps of the Persian Empire from good old wiki to see its expansion during different time periods.

                          Here it is during 6th century AD (The Sassanid period)


                          The farthest eastward it approaches is the land of Kashmir.

                          Around that same time 7th Century AD to 9th Century AD, China's borders extended to the approximate tip of the Persian Empire just short of Kashmir.



                          How did Persian-Sino cultures exchange goods and ideas?

                          The Silk Road.

                          Built in the 1st century AD, but re-opened during the Tang Dynasty when cultural trade flourished between China-Persian Empire-India-Japan-Korea-SE Asia. But what of the genetic diversity of the folks living between The Persian Empire and China?

                          In the next couple hundred years Genghis Khan and his direct descendants conquered most of China, a large part Russia, Persia and land all the way up to Baghdad. So if anything, the descendants of central Asia are of Arab-Mongolian-Russian decent, maybe with some Chinese thrown in.

                          9th Century AD

                          Looks like the Persian empire might have expanded into the northern states of India. The closest it may have ever gotten to China might be Tibet, but this isn't confirmed.

                          Back to the main subject -- Toas Nabbard? I think its more the case of a guy studying gong fu and making it his own.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mike Brewer
                            That may be the turn-off for a lot of people here. Serious students in today's world tend to want to start out by training seriously, not enduring two or three years of "testing" first. Most serious students (rightly, I think) believe that they could really accomplish a lot with those first couple of years if they were allowed to train at the level of their passion in useful, practical concepts and ideas. The notion of students undergoing extensive examination periods is, in my own humble opinion, horribly outdated. You can accomplish the same thing by working them to death on the basics of the system in true combative form and still determine whether or not they have the right type of character and disposition to move into whatever the teacher might call "advanced." I'm not potshotting the TOAS methodology, mind you; rather, just trying to explain why a lot of people here might be put off.



                            This brings up another important question. Perhaps I'm unusual in thinking this way, but if one were trying to go for a good P.R. effect, wouldn't he/she want to put the best foot forward? I mean, in any other sort of advertising, the goal is to sex things up and make them look as great and wonderful as possible. You'll never see a car commerical with the new model car's right front hub cap missing and a bondo patch on the front fender. You don't see JC Penney advertising the new Spring line of fashions with tattered elbows in all the shirts. In literally ever other type of P.R. campaign, the intent is to showcase the best possible view of the product or service one can possibly muster. By your post, it's clear that TOAS chose not to do so. Why do you suppose that is? Why "hide" the "real" stuff when the ultimate goal is to sell the system for what it is?
                            I hear you Mike. Safakhoo and I had numerous discussions regarding those points. He was very protective of his style, and didn't want someone that was "undeserving" for various reasons to represent him. My opinion was that he should teach the "real" stuff right off the bat. He would at least speed up the program for students that showed potential. Another part of the problem was that he didn't have enough students that were advanced enough to be good instructors. I thought he started using them as instructors too soon. The rationale was that there were too many students to be able to personally train all of them himself. Also, he felt that they were learning more by having to teach also. Both were/are true, but I just felt they needed to learn more first.

                            I also tried to talk him into doing some of the videos and demos himself. His rationale was that his intent was to show the abilities of his students and his teaching, not what he could do. I thought it was a shame, because he was very skilled, while his students at the time had a long way to go.

                            Students w/ prior martial arts experience, or experience in any organized sports were different. However, I'd guess a good 95% were people who weren't used to putting in the amount of effort and dedication required. His training was in a live in school, and I don't think he was prepared for the type of students he'd be getting, or the type of teaching methods required for the "average" student. There were numerous occasions when he was ready to pull up stakes and move to a larger area.

                            IIRC, when I started w/ him I was about 35 and he was almost 10 years younger. Although he was very skilled, he was still learning how to teach. He also had to learn how to deal w/ a different culture. Most americans were more laid back, and I believe those individuals w/ a more obsessive personality tend to learn faster. Whereas, at the school he attended, you really had to want to be there or you were culled. Here, students just have to have the money.

                            Some time after leaving his school, I inadvertently started teaching in the backyard. It started w/ a guy who was my daughters first boyfriend. He was paranoid about getting picked on at school and was having a rough period emotionally, and wanted to learn how to defend himself. I offered to teach him for free, since I knew he really didn't have the money to go to a real school. Plus, I felt that he really didn't need to know how to fight, he just needed to talk and get some emotional stability. His father had recently died, and he didn't feel he could talk to his family. It got out of hand much faster than I expected. At one point there were over 30 people "training" in my backyard. I tried to put some of my personal opinions into effect. I was giving them as much and as fast as they could memorize it, working on the idea that they would pick up at least a few things faster. Didn't work worth beans. I then picked one intermediate form, the Hung Gar tiger/crane form, and focused on that. I also focused on using a modified version of Wing Chun sticky hands (chi sao) for close range sensitivity training.

                            During that period, I had exactly one student that met, and exceeded my expectations. Primarily because he already had 10 years of Yoshukai experience under his belt. I was really disappointed to see him leave, but the understanding was that he was only going to be there for the summer. He picked up chi sao so quickly that I added foot guiding, chi gerk and torso joining to his training and turned the chi sao into genuine close range sparring sessions. The extra bits turned out to be a little too much for a 3 month period, but he was at least able to see the effectiveness. After he left it was downhill from there. I just couldn't come up w/ effective methods of bringing the noobes along at an acceptable speed. Tried adding a little pain to the mix working under the assumption that it would provide some incentive to practice more. Just made the students too cautious. I saw very little evidence that anyone was practicing at home, other than just empty forms. It became obvious that I didn't have an effective method of teaching the average person, and didn't have a clue how to solve the problem. The point being, I developed a better understanding of the problems Safakhoo was having w/ developing effective teaching methods.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by still-learning View Post
                              Cheech,
                              I'm pretty sure that I know you, based on some things you wrote.
                              Hope you are well. We did some stuff in your backyard a couple of times.
                              (thanks again, by the way)
                              I trained toas for a while myself, mostly after you had already left. Since then I have worked on some other things, but have used toas as my 'base', and still continue to practice certain things from that style.
                              Good to 'see' you again.
                              still-learning, I believe you're correct. I hope you stick to it. There's a world of things to learn. I was still doing pretty good up until a couple of years ago. I was learning capoeira and having a blast. Blew up my knee landing wrong. After the operation I went back once I could walk again, and managed to tear the meniscus in the other knee by landing and jumping one legged. Not a major problem, but lost the accuracy in the leg that was operated on. Kept tripping on the floor for a while and I'm unwilling to use any thing but stomping type kicks anymore, and at much less than full strength. Then started having problems w/ nausea, diarrhea and weight loss. The weight loss was the real killer, as I dropped a lot of muscle mass, and I didn't have that much to start w/. I'm really missing practicing and hope to start up a program again in the future.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Cheech,
                                ..by the way, I hope you get to feeling better soon.
                                ..and I sent you a "private message"...when you have a chance to check it...

                                I dunno what you are up to these days...but there are decent schools/instructors here in the Atlanta area, if you are ever up for relocation.

                                Next time I get back to P-cola, I'll try to get in touch with you, if I have a chance.
                                Peace

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