MMA is Not Self Defense!

[Tant01]

The fourth element...

Was I talking or was I wrighting in caps? Does your art have the three elements of combat or is bjj just another name for judo!

I don't think much of your "elemental triad"...It leaves out a psychological element but Brazilian "Jiu-Jitsu" is just another name for judo...

[ShawnJKD]

So...back to the question "What is MMA?" I think defining what MMA exactly is will help avoid some of the confusion in this thread.

Going back a few years to when the term "MMA" started to be used in conjunction with things like UFC the term seemed to refer to a mix of Thai Boxing and BJJ - with some Judo, Wrestling, or Boxing being a part of the game. MMA fighters were guys who trained in those arts seperately but combined their use in the cage (or ring). Now I hear more MMA people saying that the term refers to training in elements of those styles in a combined system that stands on its own - that only "outdated" fighters continue to train base systems on their own (though they may have come from one of them).

We now have classes and even schools that teach MMA, and not Thai Boxing and BJJ.

As an example: A few years ago in Toronto there was an event called the MMA Expo, and at that time it was a showcase of all martial arts - everything from Aikido and Judo, through Karate and kickboxing (including Savate), and on to less mainstream arts like Irish stick fighting, various FMA's, and some Jeet Kune Do. Now, a few years later, that same event is very much focused only on the sporting related aspects of the term.

So, if we were to continue to discuss "MMA is not self-defense" we would need an agreed upon definition of what MMA is - otherwise there are misunderstandings that take away from any meaningful discussion. ie "MMA has weapons..."

It should also be clear that the argument is not about whether an MMA fighter can defend himself with his/her skills - I think most of us agree that they can do so (though I also know that some disagree but that would be another topic and highly subjective).

Shawn (trying to see if there is still a topic worth discussing in this mess) :-)

[DSA]

the three elements of combat

I don't think much of your "elemental triad"...It leaves out a psychological element but Brazilian "Jiu-Jitsu" is just another name for judo...

With repetition and randori of the three elements, atemi waza, nage waza, and katame waza, the psychological element is found and developed. Judo is a great base for all other martial arts. Atemi waza is the only element missing from judo to made it complete. The same with karate, it's missing katame waza.

[combatgrappling]

MMA is a sport, just like boxing and wrestling.

Greco-roman, freestyle and sambo wrestling is sport but Catch As Catch Can Wrestling isn't sport.

Catch wrestling (catch-as-catch-can) is a fusion of Lancashire wrestling style and "rough & tumble" street fighting (without rules and tatami!). Catch wrestling is a complete submission wrestling style that focuses equally on the standup and ground part of wrestling but employs groin clawing, fishhooks, elbowing, eye gouging, scratching, flesh pinching, pressuring, lips tearing, nerve attacks, hair pulling, scratching, biting, stomping and striking.

[sapatiero]

With repetition and randori of the three elements, atemi waza, nage waza, and katame waza, the psychological element is found and developed. Judo is a great base for all other martial arts. Atemi waza is the only element missing from judo to made it complete. The same with karate, it's missing katame waza.

So atemi waza + nage waza + katame waza = the ultimate fighter, eh? Well, isn't that exactly what Japanese Ju Jutsu is, being as judo, aikido, and some karate (ie. not oikinawan - sorry about spelling) was derived from it?

Um... Actually no. In my experience JJJ was 10 times less useful than Gracie Jiu Jitsu, otherwise I wouldn't have left the japanese arts in the first place. Are my ogoshis, sotogeris, ochigeris etc. as good as a judoka? No. But I've been to judo clubs & taken 95% of judo black belts to pieces on the ground with my tatty purple belt in BJJ. But this is an old argument. The arts are different.

Judo - best for sport (ie. spectator friendly) takedowns
BJJ - best for sport groundwork with a submission bias
GJJ - includes takedowns & submissions with less of a sportive bias, but with the same roots as BJJ.

To think that by adding sportive striking (ie. karate) to a sportive throwing/grappling sport (ie. judo) you'll get something that is truly practical is completely wrong IMO. I'll flick the attacker round the ear with my orokan (spelling), before turning my back on him to do my ogoshi, then pin him down with my kesagatame? Good luck with that against anyone that has a clue... LOL

[Scott Bolinger]

Self- Defense –You should not want to fight. Taking a challenge is NOT self-defense!


lol...if that wast true, then the only true self-defense is to not train and be in denial that anything could possibly happen.

But what it actually sound like that all the people that want to boast of which art is more realist than the other, is out there challenging other arts. And the only way to , apparently fight a so called true self defense art, is to sneak up behind someone and jump them from behind, so they don't appose a in a challenging situation. Or you can do it the honorable way, and put your art to the test in the ring.

but, it just doesn't really matter of whether you call your art self defense or sport fighting, but if you want to boast about your art being better than the other art, then put it to the challenge in a ring of honor.

[DSA]

thr three elements of combat

So atemi waza + nage waza + katame waza = the ultimate fighter, eh? Well, isn't that exactly what Japanese Ju Jutsu is, being as judo, aikido, and some karate (ie. not oikinawan - sorry about spelling) was derived from it?

Um... Actually no. In my experience JJJ was 10 times less useful than Gracie Jiu Jitsu, otherwise I wouldn't have left the japanese arts in the first place. Are my ogoshis, sotogeris, ochigeris etc. as good as a judoka? No. But I've been to judo clubs & taken 95% of judo black belts to pieces on the ground with my tatty purple belt in BJJ. But this is an old argument. The arts are different.

Judo - best for sport (ie. spectator friendly) takedowns
BJJ - best for sport groundwork with a submission bias
GJJ - includes takedowns & submissions with less of a sportive bias, but with the same roots as BJJ.

To think that by adding sportive striking (ie. karate) to a sportive throwing/grappling sport (ie. judo) you'll get something that is truly practical is completely wrong IMO. I'll flick the attacker round the ear with my orokan (spelling), before turning my back on him to do my ogoshi, then pin him down with my kesagatame? Good luck with that against anyone that has a clue... LOL

AWESOME, It sounds like your redeye for the big shoe, (UFC)! I hope you have a good stand up game? Hey, isn't BJJ really judo? And is kesa gatame Japanese for scarf hold?

[Tant01]

Could it be?!

AWESOME, It sounds like your redeye for the big shoe, (UFC)! I hope you have a good stand up game? Hey, isn't BJJ really judo? And is kesa gatame Japanese for scarf hold?

Why actually... Yes! Yes it is and thank you!

[sapatiero]

AWESOME, It sounds like your redeye for the big shoe, (UFC)! I hope you have a good stand up game? Hey, isn't BJJ really judo? And is kesa gatame Japanese for scarf hold?

Heehee... Either my irony is going over your head my friend, you have trouble understanding the post (pointing out the differences between the arts), or you're trolling for fun. I'm going to assume it's the latter... It's a lot easier than trying to believe that you think that playing semi-contact 'tig' constitutes a practical method of self defense.

[DSA]

The three elements of combat!

Heehee... Either my irony is going over your head my friend, you have trouble understanding the post (pointing out the differences between the arts), or you're trolling for fun. I'm going to assume it's the latter... It's a lot easier than trying to believe that you think that playing semi-contact 'tig' constitutes a practical method of self defense.

Hello Mcfly, type in Mitsuyo Maeda in google search engine or even Masahiko Kimura. Hell just type in the history of BJJ. (GOT JUDO)!

[Tant01]

A little good on you...Gotta spread it around.

Hello Mcfly, type in Mitsuyo Maeda in google search engine or even Masahiko Kimura. Hell just type in the history of BJJ. (GOT JUDO)!

Hehehe...

LOL I'm starting to LIKE you!

No kidding! (from a judo standpoint that is...)

[Aireplay]

MMA isnt even martial arts

The definition of MMA:

Mixed martial arts (MMA) is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground.