Submission Holds

[Qkfx]

Some guys talk about not seeing many fights end in submissions recently and therefore submissions must not be as effective as they once were. My thought is this: What we call submission holds were never designed to be "submission" holds. They were designed to mame (sp?) your opponent, not make him tap. If you take a very strong guy's arm to the point of breaking and then play around by stopping short in hopes of making him submit, chances are he's going to be able to manuever and power out. Where as if you go straight for the break the chances are very much against him getting out in time. We've seen many times wrestlers find themselves almost submitted, both guys are struggling and then they power out. Would this have happened if the guys had just straight snapped it instead of getting it to a point where he thinks the other guy will tap? I think the responsibility for your opponents well being should be with them, not you. Does the striker hold back when going for a k.o.? So why not go full out for a break and let them kow if you don't tap quick you'll be taking some time off. (This is NHB and street of course)

[Ravenman]

In the street, you break first and ask questions later.

In an nhb match, however, I'm of the opinion that you should give the guy a reasonable amount of time to tap before you hyper-extend (at least a half second), and then squeeze, not jerk, into the full range of the submission. I think a jerking motion into a submission is just uncalled for, as you can have a guy be safe and have his arm broken in nearly the same moment.

[G'breel]

A good perspective on "submissions". I think a lot of us
myself included tend to lose sight of the purpose of the holds (in this case, I'm referring to the street purposes and self defense purposes.) In the case of a match (NHB), I guess it would depend on the participant woudn't it?

[sniper26]

No Holds Barred?

Shoudn't the title explain itself?? I accept the fact that I might get my arm snapped or ankle broke every time I go with someone, and if you are not prepared for the same what is the use? I know this is not something that you go out and look to do, but come on this isn't ring around the rosie. First time you go into the ring and have a good lock on someone but don't push it all the way in fear of snapping it and they reverse and take you out you will realize nice guys finish last. I am not saying this to act like a bad ass, but when you are in a NHB fight both fighters should be fully aware that this is a possibility, if not they have no business being there.

[Qkfx]

exactly

Raven, how do you determine a "reasonable amount of time" when you're in there with a monster like Kerr, Monsen or Coleman? A fraction of a second is all it takes to lose a hold and be in a real bad spot. With a guy like that you gotta jerk...cause you probably aren't going to out squeeze the guy. If a couple guys got snapped I bet everone else would began tapping very quickly. And like sniper said it's not to say I'm a bad ass it's just respecting the abilitiy of the guy you're facing.

[Ravenman]

I'm just saying that you have to give a guy a chance to tap. Of course, the time is relative, variable, and contingent on your state of mind. I have no problem if a fighter breaks someone's arm or tears out a knee or whatever if the guy refused to tap, he's asked for it then. And of course we're talking about trained fighters who have been in these positions many times and know their limits.

But look at this. A guy I trained with went into the ring against this karate guy who had some grappling training. My buddy took him down, slammed him to sidemount, and slapped on the arm-bar. The guy's elbow was popped out and bent back about 30 degrees before he could even think about tapping. You know how you spin into the armbar and then fall back? My buddy popped the elbow before his shoulders even hit the canvass. He slapped that armbar in and POP! right away, all in one fluid motion. The fight was over in about 15 seconds. I just think there's no reason for that kind of thing; give a guy the OPTION of having his arm broken. My buddy's girlfriend had broken up with him the day before, and he had decided to take his rage out on his opponent's arm. Sure, put that lock on to the point of causing some pain, but break it slowly so the guy can tap.

Look at Frank Shamrock vs Kevin Jackson. Frank could have popped Jackson's arm right off if he wanted, but he did it just slow enough that Jackson could tap before his elbow popped out. That's the professional way to do things. Same way with Enson Inoue against Randy Couture. Now, on the other hand, if Bohlander had decided to pop out Kevin Jackson's arm, then I think he'd have been justified.

[Qkfx]

Raven, incidents like the ones with Kevin Jackson are the ones that I'm thinking about. That guy had no business getting a second chance and it was because Bohlander simply didn't want to break it. I think the same thing with Kerr when he got caught in the flying arm bar at Abu Dhabi. Everyone thought he's done, he'll tap, but he was allowed to work out of the position. I guess I agree in a way, because on the one hand I'ld feel pretty bad about snapping a guys arm, but on the other hand if I let up, they get out and start dropping their 240lb knees on my head I'll wish I had done it quickly.