Expanding the MMA Arsenal

[treelizard]

So this begs the question - if trapping doesn't work in the combat sports arena (and I'm assuming in streetfighting too?) why is it still being taught whether in wing chun or JKD?

Because although people often claim they are working with force they are often actually doing 1 and 2 step sparring or a choreographed form. Therefore it will have absolutely no direct application to anything that happens against an uncooperative attacker, be it in the ring or on the street.

When I work with uncooperative training partners who use timing, distance and motion all the trapping (and a lot of JKD and FMA stuff) flies out the window.

[Guest]

Why any instructor from any system teaches a component of the art is down to their own personal experience and preference, or more often than not those dictated by their seniors.

I can only tell you from my point of view Tom. I teach four things:

Self Protection
Combat Athletics
Police & Military
Recreational Martial Arts (very rarely these days)

Any trapping I teach, and I allocate a very small amount of time to it, is taught to people who just want to train martial arts recreationally - for fun. Trapping is fun, and not everyone wants to kick arse, so it can be a vaild part of a recreational training program. But I place no worth on it in any of the other categories.

[Guest]

Because although people often claim they are working with force they are often actually doing 1 and 2 step sparring or a choreographed form. Therefore it will have absolutely no direct application to anything that happens against an uncooperative attacker, be it in the ring or on the street.

That is an outstanding post and I agree with you 100%. Nail hit on the head.

Pos rep.

[Tom Yum]

Because although people often claim they are working with force they are often actually doing 1 and 2 step sparring or a choreographed form. Therefore it will have absolutely no direct application to anything that happens against an uncooperative attacker, be it in the ring or on the street. .

I've seen trapping demonstrated in Vunak's videos. They are mostly done as a demonstration, but I still believe the man may have successfully used trapping in his infighting game?

[Guest]

I've seen trapping demonstrated in Vunak's videos. They are mostly done as a demonstration, but I still believe the man may have successfully used trapping in his infighting game.

Having learned from Paul for many years, you need to divorce what sells videos from what wins fights. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying that.

Has he trapped in a fight? Yeah I bet he has, and I have personally seen him trap disbelievers at seminars.

But Paul is a one-off Tom, unless you are exceptional don't follow exceptions to the rule. (I'm doing it again)

[Tom Yum]

Having learned from Paul for many years, you need to divorce what sells videos from what wins fights. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying that. Has he trapped in a fight? Yeah I bet he has, and I have personally seen him trap disbelievers at seminars.

But Paul is a one-off Tom, unless you are exceptional don't follow exceptions to the rule.

I find it hard to believe that Mr. Vunak would teach trapping it he didn't think it would work or others could pull it off considering street fighting is the man's career.

I believe he's put the time and effort to make it work but most people can't or don't want to.

[Guest]

or some people can't, or don't want to, accept an uncomfortable reality

[Tom Yum]

or some people can't, or don't want to, accept an uncomfortable reality

It really isn't an uncomfortable reality, Michael. Like you said, the man could be using it to sell videos - that's always a possibility.

[Tant01]

...........bttt

[Guest]

Removing Paul from the discussion, for both personal and professional reasons , I feel like I'm tredding on your toes by expressing an honest experience of trapping.

Its certainly not my intention to force my views on to you Tom, but if asked I have very little aptitude for bullshit.

[Tom Yum]

Removing Paul from the discussion, for both personal and professional reasons, I feel like I'm tredding on your toes by expressing an honest experience of trapping. Its certainly not my intention to force my views on to you Tom, but if asked I have very little aptitude for bullshit.

I wanted to compare member's experiences with other experts in the subject - unfortunately, all I have to go by from Vunak is his videos since I've never trained with him.

You gave your honest opinion based on alot of experience and so I weigh it as part of my opinion why it would not work.

And no offense was taken.

Do you think there are any techniques in the JKD arsenal that could be used in the octagon? or more specifically, jun fan?

[Guest]

Understood.

Well to clarify, Paul has never fought/taught MMA or Combat Sports, so bearing in mind that was the focus of your research, perhaps we went down the wrong track. Outside of that my views stand, but they remain purely that.

To answer your last question, the vast majority of modern JKD instructors typically train in and teach an MMA base, composed largely of Master Chai's Thai Boxing and BJJ from the Gracie/Machado line. I don't really think JKD as an exclusive entity exists anymore, or if it ever did outside of one individual.

Has Jun Fan been used to any great extent in the Octagon? I have certainly seen Erik Paulson, Neil Mcleod and Shaun Sherk use concepts of Jun Fan in their fights, but ultimately Tom those concepts came from other arts that formed the basis of Jun Fan in the first place. Its all chicken and egg, and largely philisophical.

Anyway, its 1:10AM here friend and I've run out of steam, I'll hit the hay. Its always good to talk to you.

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for participating in my discussion, Mike. I appreciate your contribution and goodnight.

[Tant01]

I wanted to compare member's experiences with other experts in the subject - unfortunately, all I have to go by from Vunak is his videos since I've never trained with him.

You gave your honest opinion based on alot of experience and so I weigh it as part of my opinion why it would not work.

And no offense was taken.

Do you think there are any techniques in the JKD arsenal that could be used in the octagon? or more specifically, jun fan?

While not an expert on the subject myself, I'd like to think I can ad another fundamental element of so called JKD. SIMPLICITY.

The way TRAPPING was explained to me is most basic. Any attachment to redirect, stall or inturrupt the attack of your opponent is trapping. While I have found little use for the jun fan drills outside sensitivity training I have smashed someones fist into his own face.

That acomplishes two things in one stroke. Lets talk about efficiency?

I doubt if it's traditional or conventional but it momentarily pinned his weapon and resulted in trauma to his hand and face. That's trapping to me.

I've had some success with foot traps as well but we were usually within reach when I just jammed or blocked his footwork to prepare for a throw (or controlled impact with terrain). I don't know if you can call stepping on somenes foot a trap? I don't know about using that stuff in the heat of the arena combat but if you look close I'm sure you can find folks trapping stuff. Even if it's not your typical pak, lop or jut.

But then what do I know...?

[treelizard]

Why trap when you can CLINCH?

Anyway, I found a quote by Paul Vunak himself:

"I got into a fight with a very famous Wing Chun man (I'm not going to mention his name). When the fight began, I entered with my straight blast, but instead of him turning and covering like everyone else, He occupied centerline as a response, and we were stuck at a reference point. This precipitated a perk Sao/lop Sao from me, and I followed up with several elbows to the face, and was pleased with the result. The very poignant lesson that I learned was this: The only time you ever need to do a Wing Chun trap is if you’re fighting a Wing Chun man who happens to occupy center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear me refer to trapping, I'm talking about an entry, straight blast, and head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao! "