"arts" generally can't fight. if you want to get in shape, stretch take yoga and lift weights. if you really have a desire tio fight do mma/fma. yes some tma may be good, but training to kick "near" the head is not like kicking with intent to break a neck. i have a bb in tkd. it is worthjless as far as trainging for self defense. but caveat emptor not all tma schools are bad, they must train realistically. no you do not need black eyes and busted lips, but you can't train to miss by 4 in. and expect to modify that on the fly with an adrenaline dump.trust me i tried. listen to crafty dog, train realistically, and pray you never need it
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I think that alot of people who are anti mma miss the point completely. TMA does not hold superiority over mma and mma does not hold superiority over tma.
mma is just another evolution in the arts. just as kung fu, karate, silat etc were. almost all the tma arts in there time were tested in a similar way as mma is been tested now, only difference is that now it is more of a spectator sport with the invention of TV and a mass increase in the worlds population.
tma has a tendency to hold onto traditions that are long dead and most practicioners have no idea behind the meaning of them, how many people know why they wear a gi for example?
and mma does have a tendency to attract the meat heads, but remember the meat heads all trained karate and judo and TKD before mma arrived on the scene this is something that anti mma guys tend to leave out or outright deny.
ontop of that in my experience I have found that mma schools are usually more enjoyable to walk into, people are usually friendlier whilst at most tma schools people have their little groups and are stand offish.
you have to remember that since the origination of the arts there has been progression but that progression does not come from the original arts, tkd was the progression from karate for example. although if you looked at tkd today you wouldn't believe it, traditional tkd was an invaluable progression in the arts and is more closely linked to what mma is now then people realise (but did rely on kicking more). and kyokushin is another prime example of progression the original kyokushin was nothing like it is today, oyama would be rolling in his grave if he saw what his art has become.
and when these arts originate the traditional community always comes out and says that it is taking away from the true value of martial arts blah blah blah, look what they used to say about oyama, he was a show boater because he used to do public displays of killing a bull with one punch. if that isn't a way to test the effectiveness of your punch hell i don't know what is.
so now the tma community has come out as an anti mma community and saying the same things, "oh mma isn't effective because this is sport fighting and just a show" sounds familiar huh???
but mma will be watered down and another progression will spring up and mma will join the anti mma guys in saying that this new system is ineffective and only for show.
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I agree also that there will always be a place for the TMA. I am starting to think about Tai Chi again...... especially as my club has really moved away from kung-fu to being a kickboxing club, and possibly soon an MMA one too! Its all too rough. I have a family to look after and a job to do, can't do that if I am all messed up! Better to do some nice forms and some traditional training drills, and a learn some cheeky moves that may get me out of trouble, if ever I stumble anywhere near it!
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Originally posted by Crafty Dog View PostThis is an article I wrote about 5 years ago that in part addresses the question presented here:
KALI TUDO (tm) Article
1. Why do we have a problem with "Comprehensive Systems?"
(We - being lazy - mistakenly refer to "Traditional Systems" when we actually mean Comprehensive Systems.)
2. Why does a Grappling/Submission school have problems with a new student that, initially, refuses to be taken down (its not really that hard)?
3. Do you really think you should train to fight a weapon or is it better to fight the person regardless of his weapon?
4. In life, what is the probability someone will attack you while you're holding a stick, a knife, a Sword?
5.. In real live, how long (time-wise) should you allow an altercation to last? (Seconds - Minutes?)
6. Are any of us here really knowledgeable enough to correctly chose the right combination of martial arts disciplines in order to come up with the best Mixed Martial Art?
7. If you walk into a martial arts school and, during your first interview, the owner ask if you have any questions. You ask: Is there ANYTHING in martial arts that you DON'T teach and the owner starts the answer with "we don't teach.............., should you just leave?
8. Isn't the goal to become an Alpha Male or Alpha Female?
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Yeah i think we have to think about this in the real world with real situations. A lot of people do not think that way and are caught up in the TV stereotype world.
mma fanatic
HawaiiUFC.com - UFC Gear, UFC Videos, UFC Books, UFC News, and More.
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I'd like to have fun and try and answer your questions....
QUOTE=sojobow;331458]To everyone: Allow me to answer a question, with a question.
1. Why do we have a problem with "Comprehensive Systems?"
(We - being lazy - mistakenly refer to "Traditional Systems" when we actually mean Comprehensive Systems.)
What is a "comprehensive system" can you give an example?
2. Why does a Grappling/Submission school have problems with a new student that, initially, refuses to be taken down (its not really that hard)?
Maybe it frustrates the school to find someone thinking for themselves?
3. Do you really think you should train to fight a weapon or is it better to fight the person regardless of his weapon?
Person, the weapon is an extension of the body and you should be aware of what it can do and its range however.
4. In life, what is the probability someone will attack you while you're holding a stick, a knife, a Sword?
Low to nil odds. Depends on your job.
5.. In real live, how long (time-wise) should you allow an altercation to last? (Seconds - Minutes?)
Always train for the terminator, everyone else will seem easy after that
6. Are any of us here really knowledgeable enough to correctly chose the right combination of martial arts disciplines in order to come up with the best Mixed Martial Art?
Different strokes for different blokes. Certainly not me.
7. If you walk into a martial arts school and, during your first interview, the owner ask if you have any questions. You ask: Is there ANYTHING in martial arts that you DON'T teach and the owner starts the answer with "we don't teach.............., should you just leave?
Of course not. If you walk into a BJJ school, for example, ask that questions and they reply "we don't teach striking" are you going to say "well **** you guys, I'm going home". Likewise with an MT school, situations reversed. If they don't teach something you want to learn, why train there anyway??
8. Isn't the goal to become an Alpha Male or Alpha Female?[/QUOTE]
Maybe for you and other people but not for all of us.
Out of curiosity, what does achieving the Alpha Male/Female goal mean anyway?
No earth shattering answers here....maybe someone else can come up with something better?
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"5.. In real live, how long (time-wise) should you allow an altercation to last? (Seconds - Minutes?)"
The fight will be what the fight will be. In many paradigms typically the fight is over in seconds. OTOH if you are on a NYC subway platform late at night when 2-3 teenage street thugs start circling, you may want to have the cardio to run and have a go of things for several minutes.
"4. In life, what is the probability someone will attack you while you're holding a stick, a knife, a Sword?"
Sword? Not so likely, though a recent burglar got killed by a homeowner using one.
Knives? Sticks? IMHO this can come up quite a lot in many environments. Be glad you apparently live where such is not the case. Also, sticks and knives serve real well to equalize uneven odds in numbers and age.
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7. If you walk into a martial arts school and, .............., should you just leave?
Of course not.
Why train to be one-dimensional or two-dimensional. You'll probably be ok since most people can't fight well anyway (including me). A good fighter probably will recognize your limitations easily and easily defeat you. Why even bother with a one or two-dimensional system unless you like hobbies.
Originally posted by WildWest. View Postout of curiosity, what does achieving the Alpha Male/Female goal mean anyway?Originally posted by WildWest. View Post?
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Originally posted by Crafty Dog View Post"5.. The fight will be what the fight will be. In many paradigms typically the fight is over in seconds.
Wouldn't it be great for you to have achieved a state where the [B]fight will be what YOU want the fight to be and to last as long as YOU want it to last. I've met people who actually think this way and are good enough to pull it off. Makes me wish I would have started training correctly a lot earlier in life.
Don't want to change the subject, but have you ever had someone come to your tournament and ask to fight three people at time? I'd bet sparring against a single opponent would really bore the heck out of you.
You just gave me a great idea though - new way to practice.
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Yeah i think you are right. Sparring against only one person at a time can get boring. In real life sometimes you have more than one person im sure.
mma fanatic from hawaii
HawaiiUFC.com - UFC Gear, UFC Videos, UFC Books, UFC News, and More.
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Concerning preparation for multiple palyer situations, in Dog Brothers Martial Arts we place great emphasis on bilateralism (the ability to work left and right dominant) not only for its great value in fighting one opponent, but also as a foundational skill for more than one.
For example if the BG is to my North and I need to fight in a left lead and a buudy of his approaches from my East, if I need to put left foot forward towards this additional threat then perforce I will be exposing my back to the North threat.
OTOH if I can fluidly shift to right lead and spiral Southeast, then I may have a chance to stay in the fight-- a simple example to illustrate a larger conceptual point.
Speaking only for the future of DBMA, which has as it's mission statement "Walk as a warrior for all your days" via "The search for the totality of ritual and reality" (c) dbi includes the concept of "consistency across categories" i.e. we really believe in the validity of the claim of Kali/the FMA that the movements of empty hands are those of the weapons. Once you have hit people with sticks in the adrenal state these movements make complete sense EH as well-- this allows you to have the same response whether, for example, there is a knife in the hand or not-- quite commonly one will not have time to discern and select a distinct response.
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Originally posted by sojobow View PostWhy train to be one-dimensional or two-dimensional. You'll probably be ok since most people can't fight well anyway (including me). A good fighter probably will recognize your limitations easily and easily defeat you. Why even bother with a one or two-dimensional system unless you like hobbies.
Its a parable, a metaphor kind of thing. You see a pack of wolves. Then, you see that big monster of the Alpha Male. The only one you'd want to catch and take home is the Alpha Male. Your spirit relates only to the Alpha Male. He's the only one that remind you of you (or who you wish you could be)..
Outside of MMA and combat sports in general, what is the likelihood of you getting into a fight with a good fighter? This is a serious question because if you are someone who feels they have to protect their ego and regularly gets into street fights then the conversation is finished......no offence by the way. If you avoid fights, use de-escalation techniques, stay out of bad areas/bars etc, don't hang with troublesome people then being "well rounded" isn't as big a deal compared to early identification of a confrontation and avoiding it is.
So why bother with a one or two dimensional system? Provide some examples of such a system and I will try to explain more specifically, but it's usually along the lines of proficiency at something. You will be better boxer if you do boxing for 2 years compared to if you did an MMA class over the same period because there are a lot more skills to learn in MMA.
I appreciate you analogy for the Alpha Male thing. I do not have a desire to be the Alpha Male so probably don't fully understand the point your making. I don't think we live in quite the same society as wolves.
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Originally posted by Crafty Dog View PostOnce you have hit people with sticks in the adrenal state these movements make complete sense EH as well-- this allows you to have the same response whether, for example, there is a knife in the hand or not-- quite commonly one will not have time to discern and select a distinct response.
I do not want to make any enemies but the release or evidence of the release of Adrinaline is a great weakness in martial arts (IMHO). I've watched a lot of videos of the MMA-type events and street fights and one thing I notice is what is commonly referred to as "The Hijacking of the Amygdala." You can internet search the subject so I don't have to use a lot of your time explaining the concept.
Baically, it all comes from a subject of martial arts called "fight or flight." Think of two fighters: One fighter hits the other with a good punch and knocks him down and immediately, starts this customary "ground and pound" to the extent that, if the ref doesn't jump in between them, the grounded fighter is 'out cold' but the puncher just keeps on beating this man. I have no idea what the purpose of "stomping" the head of a downed person during a "sporting" event.
When one experiences an amygdala hijack, the amygdala overtakes the neocortex (the thinking part of the brain) and there’s little or no ability to rely on intelligence or reasoning. The effect is that energy is drawn exclusively into the hijack. The immediate result of a hijack is a decrease in working memory. Adrenaline is released and will be present and effective for 18 minutes, and other hormones are released into the bloodstream that will take 3-4 hours to clear.
( Anger: Managing the amygdala hijack Life at the Bar )
IMO, the system we train in must incorporate in its curriculum the Mind (in this case, the thalamus) so that it overrides the Amygdala. The Thalamus must not recognize fear, anger, and thus no decision is made regarding fight or flight. The student knows where to strike, when to strike and the intended result of the strike. If he loses focus and control, the adrinaline is flowing and his brain isn't working.
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Originally posted by WildWest. View PostI understand your point about training to be 1 or 2 dimensional and how it would be preferable to have a wide variety of skills in order to beat a good fighter.
I appreciate you analogy for the Alpha Male thing. I do not have a desire to be the Alpha Male so probably don't fully understand the point your making. I don't think we live in quite the same society as wolves.
Worry not about the Alpha Male story. Our parents taught us a lot by using such stories. Remember the one about the Turtle and the Hare (Rabbit). Parents wanted us to be like the Turtle and not the Rabbit. Just a way of learning.
Just too many definitions of MMA. Which is right, I have no idea.
P/S http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...1&sc=YahooNews
They are also after your kids. A promise made to us 50 years ago.
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