Small Joint Locks and Manipulation?

[Mik_36]

I saw this discussion on another board a long time ago (then sort of forgot about it) and remembered it the other day and I wanted to get peoples opinions on what is discussed here and then get some advice.
Here is the discussion:


Hi,
I don't think doing wrist locks and finger/thumb locks are "legal" in competition? But... Do you think I should do it in class while sparring?
I have a little bit of a background in Aikido. I was sparring with some B.J.J. players and I had a strong urge to apply a wrist lock. I didn’t do it though, I thought they would be angry because their class seems to be geared towards competition?
It seems to me VERY easy to grab a hand or finger and apply a lock in order to submit your opponent.
So, I guess my questions are...
1) Do you think I would offend anyone in class if I applied a wrist lock while sparring?
2) Are wrist/finger/thumb locks legal in competition?
3) Do any of you use these locks while you are sparring? If NOT, why?
Thanks for all the help. :-)
Regards,
Trigger.


In Reply to: Small Joint Locks at Grappling Range?!?!? posted by Trigger on May 27, 1999 at 15:24:18:
: I don't think doing wrist locks and finger/thumb locks are "legal" in competition? But... Do you think I should do it in class while sparring?:


I do try to manipulate the wrist while "rolling around". Of course, I use the same control I would use when attempting any other joint lock. I attack the fingers a little less due to the ease with which you can injure those little joints. I will sometimes put a little pressure on to just remind and keep my partner "honest".
OK.... I have a question for the board. Do you think that a finger "lock" or break would do much in the way of deterring a determined foe? Sure it would hurt like hell the next day...but would it stop him 90% of the time?
~Kev


Responce:
I think Finger/Thumb locks can stop ANYONE in their tracks!!!
When I was introduced to the world of joint manipulations I thought a small little finger lock could NEVER stop an attacker.
My instructor told me to grab him like I would if I were to start a fight with him, I took his offer and grabbed him by the lapel of his Gi, and the next thing I remember was a shock of pain going through my body and I was on the floor yelling for him to stop. When he released the hold a bit I looked up at what he was doing and it was a thumb-lock. After I got up he told me to grab him again and he did the exact same thing to me again but this time while I was on the floor he showed me that he had TOTAL control over me, He took me Left, right, forward, back and put me on my knees and on my back spun me around clockwise and counter clock wise. When I say forward, back, left and etc., I mean he had me crawling and dragging my self up and down the dojo in pain. It was a very Interesting experience.
YES, FINGER/THUMB LOCKS DO WORK!!!!

Trigger




Posted by Rene H. on May 27, 1999 at 22:34:17:
In Reply to: Small Joint Locks at Grappling Range?!?!? posted by Trigger on May 27, 1999 at 15:24:18:
Hi! Trigger,
Just like yourself, I too have a preference for joint wrist/finger locks when in the grappling range. I find that my rather thick wrists can pull off this type of complinace maneuvers rather well. Overall, I prefer them more so than arm bars, etc., because they are indeed the closest target to my own wrist hand. There is something to be said when these type of locks are applied, you get your opponent in the position you want somewhat easier. In sparring, I will give my students that chance to interpret the move as it is happening because it is so easy to snap that joint or digit. They say the strongest part of a building is its foundation and in the human body, the arms & legs are the equivalent. To me that wrist, finger joints, ankle, are the weakest foundation in the human body, and that is another way to bring down your opponent.
 PFS of South Texas


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So what are your opinions of small joint locks and manipulations?

I don't see them used becuase they are illegal in competition but I'm more concerned about what is most effective on the street!

It sounds like small joint locks and manipulation can really be EXTREMELY effective, but I have never really been exposed to them all that much.

So now I sort of want to learn some Aikido, or at least the part with joint locks and manipulation.

What do you guys think?

I don't really want to go take Aikido classes or anything because all I want is the small joint locks and not the rest.

So does anybody know of any good small joint lock and manipulation books or videos, I DON'T CARE whether they are Aikido or whatever, I just want to learn small joint locks and manipulation!

Thanx,

Mike

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Hapkido has very good wrist and small joint manipulation locks.

[aikidoka]

aikido is good. itsn ot just the joint locks it can be useful to bjj in many respcts. the throws are good especially if your a smaller guy like me, you dont need(theorhetically)much power at all to use them. joint locks are invaluable. use aikido to et them down, then you can blend bjj and the joint manipulation of aikido. good mix. i also fin aikido classes very relaxing as they are not so physically intense and just fun. also cool, it gives you that whole japanese zen feeling .

[Mik_36]

thanx guys,
Yella Tiger, I had heard something like that about Hapkido, but I wasn't really sure. I know cops do Hapkido, or is that Aikido, or maybe both, I not really sure, but I'm going to look into both.

I'm not really a smaller guy, I'm 6'1 225, but I definately hear what your saying on it not taking as much strength.

I've just heard to many good things about small joint locks to not look into them.

Hey if they're banned in most comp. that tells me they are that much more effective on the street, make sense?


Anyway.....

[John Bennett]

Originally posted by Mik_36
Hey if they're banned in most comp. that tells me they are that much more effective on the street, make sense?

Wristlocks are legal in competition.

Small joint manipulations are banned in competition precisely because of their ineffectiveness.

You can break a guy's fingers or toes but that doesn't accomplish anything other than pissing the guy off. It doesn't disable him like a choke, armbar, or a leg-lock.

Thus, the danger in doing them in competition is not worth it because it doens't simulate a disabling or crippling technqiue.

[aikidoka]

are you joking? whats he gonna do with a broken finger? punch? i think not...grab you tight for submission...i think not...nothing? yes.

[Mik_36]

Hi John Bennett,

I haven't been exposed to small joint locks enough to know if what you saying is true or not.

I had assumed that they had banned small joint locks becuause it was to easy to do damage to those little joints, (not becuase they were deemed useless or ineffective). (of course I could be wrong on that, I just don't know the full story there)

Of course on the street the point is often doing damage to end the fight, so most people don't have any such concern for their opponent's well being in that situation.

I don't know if what your saying is true or not becuase I haven't been exposed to them (small joint stuff) enough, but I have heard way to many people sing the praises of small joint locks, and it only makes sense to me that they would only ban something in an NHB type competion becuase it can all to easily do serious damage, which is often just what you need on the street.

Just my opinion.

But does anyone else have opinions of small joint locks for street use, good or bad, becuase I'm still trying to decide whether to study that area. I'm about 99% convinced that they are a great thing to know and use (if necessary) so it will take a whole lot to convince me otherwise.

So ya, I think that aikidoka is correct becuause I broke a finger in Football once and it was unbelievably painfull, I had to go out of the game to get a shot and tape the finger to my next finger.

In a fight, where the guy has no shot or tape (and no time off to shake of the pain) to help out (plus he would have to use his finger for punching and grappling). It would be difficult for me to believe that anyone could fight like this unless they were on some kind of speed or PCP. I just don't think that even the adrenline rush of a fight would be enough for him to be able to fight effectively with a broken finger or thumb.

But again, this is just my opinion, I would like to hear other's opinions on this.



Thanx

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Hapkido is also good because they blend and flow from locks to strikes pretty well.

I think Hapkido is alot easier to learn than aikido.

I've had experience with both, and aikido I have found took a lot more skill to do. Hapkido is more ideal for close quarters, if I did not have alot of space for aikido, it was very difficult for me to perform the throws, technically, it was Friggin hard for me to do any of the aikido throws.

Hapkido, more functional in my opinion.

[John Bennett]

Yes, small joint manipulations are banned in competition because it is so easy to do damage with them.

However, I don't think they have the instant disabling effect you guys seem to think they have.

It's like the wrist locks. Sure, they hurt like hell. Yes, when you have them demonstrated on you they seem spectacular. But do you really think you could pull one off while in mid-air being slammed to the ground. How would you pull one off when the guy is mounted on you pummelling your face into jelly?

Have you ever heard of anyone winning a fight with finger locks? I haven't. I'm not talking about drunken uncles or MMA sport. I'm talking about fights. I've been around this stuff for 20 years and I've never heard of it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't learn them. I'm just saying that they should be icing on your cake, not you primary means of defense.

So if that's the case, how much time should you spend on them. Keep in mind that time spent on them is detracted from the time you could have spent on other things.

[aikidoka]

lol dude if somoenes on PCP just stay the hell away form em...the only physical way i know of stoppin them is a)break both their legs. a bad idea in the long run or b)choke them out. probably theb est way to do it. dont let them out till they are unconscious. all the adrenalin in the world cant resist a choke. just make sutre they dont bite you or anything

[Mik_36]

Hi John Bennett,

You may have convinced me. I've never really heard of anyone winning a fight by finger/thumb lock either.

If you think they should be icing on the cake, you're probably right, it sounds like you've got alot more experience than I do, 20 years to my 4.

It is probably just something that you can use if the situation presents itself, not have it be a major fighting strategy or anything.

I mean if I have a choice of getting a guy in an armbar or finger/thumb lock, the armbar would be a lot more effective obviously, but small joints locks are very painful also and so are a good alternative, right?


I just didn't really know, but I'll take the advice of guys with more experience.

Thanx

[dan downard]

John.In the earliest pankration fights in the greek olympics they disallowed finger locks because they had one guy who was beating everyone by breaking their fingers.I found it on the web someplace.I'll see if I can find it again for you.

[duchman]

Dan,
youre email account is fecked up. I keep getting my mail to you back.

[Mik_36]

Hi,

I want to make one thing clear. In my mind trying to get any small joint lock while in the stand up game would be unwise in the EXTREME, (unless I'm missing some special way of doing it) that would be an EXTREMELY easy way of getting K.O'd (obviously).

Like how the cops apply wrist and small joint locks (while standing), if you tried that in a real fight (while still on you feet) you would be K.O'd for sure!

I'm talking about applying these small joint locks once you get to the ground and are rolling, and if the opportunity presents itself. I'm still more than convinced that if another hold (on a bigger joint) is not possible this is a great way to go (i.e small joint locks).

Mike

[Robbie]

Well,I am a BB in Hapkido,so I know my wrist locks and finger locks.I have used wrist locks while ground fighting,they come in useful when the guy is trying to muscle his way out of an attempted arm bar or something like that.Also they are pretty good to use when setting up chokes and other submission moves.IMO wrist locks are very useful while grappling.

Finger locks are good for slowing down an attacker or to escape from a submission.Next time you roll with a training partner see how many times you could grab his thumbs and fingers and just twist and break them if you were really fighting(don't really break them of course,it's only training! ).