What would you do, fellow Americans?

[flyinclockchoke]

Imagine that one day, the Native Americans, who have been living abroad or elsewhere, all decided that they were going to move to the west coast... because that's where they all used to live hundreds of years ago, and they have their own religion and they want to create a government so all people of that religion can live together in their nation, where they used to live thousands of years ago, because they have the right to it. so they move to the United States west coast... parts of California, Washington and Oregon... and then they end up buying a lot of land and own about 7% of all the land in the USA.

all of a sudden an international governing body headed by an Arab country (pick any Arab country)... divides the USA at the Mississippi, and gives everything west to the native americans and displace all the other americans towards the east of the mississippi river. just get up and leave and move to the east of the mississippi. it's the native american's right to come back to his homeland... he's been suffering for the last 3000 years... since the beginning of time... let them come back... if some native american tries to come to my home, and take my house, he's gonna get a shotgun put in his face... just so you know... I'm sure fighting will no doubt break out...

and what about all those american families with roots on the west coast? what are they gonna do? if you don't flee, will you be driven from your home? even if you're not driven from your home, all of a sudden, you're living in somebody else's country... what kind of feelings would that create in you? how would you feel about the United Nations and the head Arab country that leads the UN? you go to sleep, and then overnight, you wake up in another country... i can only assume that it won't be a pretty thing when you realize that in the morning...

what's even more upsetting is that the native americans have a lot of money and are very involved in the politics and affairs of the head Arab state... they are best homies... in fact, Arabs give native Americans billions of dollars for their support of the state of NATIVAMERICA.

F'UCK ALL NATIVE AMERICANS AND ARABS... THEY CAN ALL GO TO HELL!!! LET'S KILL EVERY LAST F'UCKING ONE OF THEM RIGHT NOW!!!

I don't really mean that of course... I was merely illustrating how I would react if the those fictious events were to ever occur in the United States of America and I was ever displaced from my home. You be your own judge.

Let's end this cycle of hate. Killing solves nothing.

Good Day and God Bless us all...

[Masala]

THe premise that your entire post is based on, is fundamentally flawed, and your analogy is way way off.

1) the U.S. is an established country with a government and ruile of law. There has never been a Palestinian government or country. The land was held by many successive empires; persian, prussian, ottoman, british, etc. The Palestinian claim to it is unfounded.

2) Your analogy of the native americans = Israelis can easily be turned around to Native Americans = Palestinians.....do you think the US should give the country over to the Native Americans, or are you a hypocrit?

I could go on and on, but I won't.

This is a tiny strip of land. Go look at the mass. There are thousands upon thousands of miles of Arab land surounding a little patch. The Israelis built Jerusalem, the Arabs did not. It is a fabricated "holy site" to them in order to give an excuse for war.

The Israelis took back what was theirs, and there is plenty of room for the Palestinians else where.

[Masala]

The real question is, what would you do, fellow americans, if Mexico decided they wanted the south west U.S. back and proceeded to launch multiple wars against us and use our border as a terrorist lauch zone?

Answer; there would be no more Mexico as we know it.

Israel has shown more restraint than any other country in the world would under the same circumstances.

[flyinclockchoke]

it was actually a real question...

masala,

i wasn't giving an analogy... i was really asking the american people what they would do if the native americans pulled the same s'hit here in the united states. how would americans feel? never mind what the analogy is... that's not the focus, the FOCUS IS ON US AMERICANS, and how we would feel.

as far as the current status of native americans is concerned, they were pretty much assimilated by a mainstream society that has basically forgotten about them. i find this quite sad. While it would be totally improbable that the United States return the land we now live on, our situation is different because we've been through hundereds of years of development. The Jewish state of Israel was formed roughly only 50 years ago.

by asking if I'm a hypocrite, you have essentially acknowledged that, while it is sad that Muslims, their ancestors, and other peoples were living in these lands for hundreds of years before the "reappearance" of the Jews, oh f'ucking well. too bad, so sad... because Jews have the "right" to take it back, because it says so in your Torah... you sound just like every crazy religious extremist out there. cause you want others to believe that Jews have the right to Israel and I'm hearing you justify the killing of Palestians because of your right to Israel, because of your right to "take back" what "supposedly" belonged to Jews, written in some Jewish holy book.

and what's with these comments... "no more Mexico" , "Israel has shown more restraint..." these comments are beginning to sound more and more militant.

Israel has shown the most restraint? You conveniently forgot to add that ISRAEL HAS THE MOST UNITED NATIONS INFRACTIONS FOR USE OF EXCESSIVE FORCE, MORE THAN ANY OTHER U.N. NATION...

you and Qkfx are EXACTLY alike... manipulating the information and misdirection of the focus to fit your argument... what could you and Qkfx possibly have in common?

"The Israelis took back what was rightfully their's"... Wow, now you sound really militant... But then again, I already knew that...

I'm glad you used the analogy of Mexico wanting the U.S. back. That's funny because your analogy already suggests that Israel belongs to the people of Palestine. Therefore, because we won't give the USA back to Mexico, surely the Jews wouldn't and shouldn't give Israel back to the Palestinians. Is this what you assert? Correct me if I'm not understanding you, Masala... Surely you cannot be comparing the methods and circumstances under how the great nation of America was established to how the nation of Israel was established, are you?

Dear forum readers, please find online any info regarding the history of the state of Israel and how it came to be established... What I mean by established is, how were the boundries and borders of the state of Israel determined and drawn up? Who determined these boundries? Why were the boundries drawn this way?

I won't say because I don't want to sound like I'm influencing anybody's thought processes. But you can be your own judge regarding what happened. All I ask is that you keep in mind only the FACTS and what is considered "legal" or "illegal" under United Nations Charter law.

Why would Palestinians want the land "back" in the first place if it didn't BELONG to them when the Jews "righteously" claimed it as theirs instead?

Rightfully theirs, huh? Says who? Again, I'm not Jewish and due to separation of church and state, you are not allowed to use that argument here on this forum. Jewish law is not my LAW, it's not US LAW and it's NOT INTERNATIONAL LAW either, so you can see how your argument doesn't apply.

[Masala]

Sorry if I mis read your post as an anology.

I do not use Jewish law as an argument; whether I am "allowed to" or not. It's not about religion to me.

You keep reiterating the UN sanctions. You must put this in proper perspective: The Arab countries have enough voting power to institute "infractions" against Israel, especially with the votes of China and Russia on their side. Viola! Sanctions or what have you.

The fact is, the UN drew up the borders and Israel was perfectly happy to repect them and live in peace with it neighbors, but the arabs would not. Instead they launched a full scale war in response to the UNs declaration, and tried to wipe the Israelis off the map. Failing, they tried again and again. Still failing they have used terrorism as their primary weapon for years. THE PALESTINIAN CHARTER STILL CALLS FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. Get real man.
If the arabs had respected the UNs borders, we wouldn't be in this situation, but instead they launched attack after attack, forcing the Israelis to take retaliatory and preventive measures.

Jordan brutally DROVE the "palestinians" out of their country to create this whole situation, yet no one in the arab league spoke out. How strange.

Its time for the Palestinians to change their tune, stop the attacks against Israelis, stop calling for Israels destruction, round up the instigators, extremists, and terrorist, and stop this rediculous claim to Jerusalem. This is the real road to peace, and if they truly did that in good faith, I think the Palestinians would find Israel pulling out of the occupied territories rather quickly. You think Israel really WANTS to live like this? Constantly under threat , constantly in fear? THey have no choice, this is defense of their very EXSISTANCE we are talking about.

[flyinclockchoke]

thanks masala, i've finally put it into the proper perspective

The real reason you can't use Jewish law as your argument is because you would allow yourself to sound like a dumbs'hit religious extremist... and you wouldn't want to create the image that Jewish people are fanatics, would you? Afterall, Arabs are the fanatical ones, right?

I never mentioned anything about UN sanctions... but now that you do, many European countries also have voted against Israel, not just China and Russia. As mentioned in the article by Richard Curtiss, a recent U.N. General Assembly resolution calling upon Israel to curb further encroachments on Palestinian lands by Jewish settlers, only the United States and Micronesia voted with Israel. Of the 185 U.N. member nations, all of the others, without exception, voted against Israel or abstained.

The fact is, Jews had no reason to disrespect Palestians. Is anyone aware that Sir Herbert Samuel, the first High Commissioner to British-administered Palestine, was a Jew? That's a pretty funny coincidence, eh? Instead of returning the lands to the Arabs as promised for helping the British defeat the Ottoman Turks, the land became British-administered Palestine... now what's up with that coincidence? I assume that British-administered Palestine probably had a lot of influence, if not total control and power to determine the borders of the state of Israel. Funny how the boss was a Jew though, eh?...

God, it's so interesting, the free exchange of information over the internet? The plot thickens...

When did the Arab Israeli war break out, do you know? It wasn't when the British pulled out their troops on May 15th, 1948. The entire Arab world attacked Israel on that exact same day? Is that possible? They must have coordinated their troops already to have that sort of planning... The reason they coordinated their troops was because the war actually started 6 months prior, after the announcent of Britain's partition plan for British-administered Palestine, which was incidentally being governed by a Jew at the time. When the Arabs finally attacked in May, over 400k Palestinians had already fled or been driven from their own homes.

So now you want them to live with you in peace, Masala? I think you're totally deluded, bro? It's no wonder the Jew has been persecuted for centuries...

and then you state: "Jordan brutally DROVE the "palestinians" out of their country to CREATE THIS WHOLE SITUATION, yet no one in the arab league spoke out. How strange."

in light of all the historical and statistical information I've presented regarding how the state of Israel was established, I would say that you made those statements because:

a. ignorant of middle east history
b. deliberate misdirection of the focus of what's important and a spread of misinformation to manipulate American minds
c. all the above

which one is it gonna be?

By now, I've effectively addressed how you distort information and misdirect the focus from what is important, to what is not. Now that forum readers know that about you, they can decide for themselves in the future, whether or not you're spreading lies.

If you guys just didn't try and take the land from them in the first place, maybe they wouldn't be trying to kill you... and maybe if Israeli's would stop killing kids throwing rocks by using Israeli sharp shooters, then the Arabs would consider starting to talk about peace... maybe if Israel would STOP building settlements on OCCUPIED TERRITORIES FIRST... blah blah blah... it's pointless because the list can go on and on...

By telling the Palestinians that they need to be peaceful first, it's like saying we should not retaliate against bin Laden. That we need to be peaceful for their invasions into our home. You my friend, are the biggest hypocrite I know and I'm ashamed that there are people like you in America.

The truth is finally out. I'm sure most of you guys thought that Masala was a pretty good guy... you guys weren't aware that he's some religious extremist, eh? I can only pray to God that it's got nothing to do with you being a Jew. I've got a really good Jewish friend, but he's not hardcore Jewish, and he's like one of the coolest buddies I've got. I will not make a stereotype here and say that all Jews are like you... I should be ashamed of myself for even thinking that way, but you can see where I might be suspicious of all Jews after you have misrepresented them so horribly.

Unlike most people, I'm quite aware of and I've come to accept, just how much influence Jews have on the government, the people and the policies of the United States of America.

Good Day and God Bless us all.

[Masala]

My man, you havent "effectively addressed " jack shit.

You are the deluded, and this one sentence of yours sums it all up:

"It's no wonder the Jew has been persecuted for centuries..."


Nuff said, I'm through with your idiocy and fairytales.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Masala, you have no arguing skills. Even I, an Arab, can argue against Flying Clock Choke better than you can. I'm just glad Clock Choke is the only one on this forum seeking the truth instead of just yelling "Bomb The Bastards!"

[E1am]

flyingclockchoke your are obviously a Jew hater. You are also an idiot who is flooding the forum with endless garbage and half-truths. At first you were pretty much giving and arguing facts even if you were only giving facts that supported your beliefs (Of course everyone on here is pretty much giving one sided historical accounts). But now you've shown your true colors. You like to point out all the injustices the Israelis have committed (and there are many). But you ignore the fact that the Arab world has also treated the Palestinians like shiit. They've put refugees in squalid camps, confiscated Palestinian land, and only given lip service to the cause unless it was politically expedient to do otherwise. At the very least, oil rich Arab nations could make refugee camps livable but they don't. There are groups that help the Paletinian people though; Western NGOs.

[keithws]

Dude, what gives?

You're obsessed with the notion that there is some sort of justification for killing our fellow americans, civilians none the less!

Now, you're mumbling some sh&t about what if we were american indians and blah, blah, blah. You're putting in overtime coming up with every scenario possible to make us feel bad about how the palestinians or whoever has been short changed by U.S. policy.

Honestly, should that be the focus at this time? If so, then why has Nato only focussed on bringing those (governments, known terrorists, etc) to justice. How come, world leaders aren't focussing on diplomacy at this time. I guess that everyone's wrong on their approach except you.

It's quite obvious that you're only interested in angering people on the forum or you wouldn't have popped out of nowhere to make such statements.

Where were you before the trajedy?

And hookah, what truth are you talking about?

[flyinclockchoke]

persecuted for Centuries...

masala,

you see what kind of anger and hurt you feel when people talk that trash? that pisses you off doesn't it masala? i don't really mean that, and I was merely illustrating that it is exactly this type of "one-sided" thought processes that adds fuel to the fire of hate. I'm sure you will agree. my comments were entirely intended to offend and stir anger and hate... not because i'm evil but because I use it as an illustration of how things can so easily get outta hand... look at what happened to the indian clerk shot in his back...

but at least i've presented facts, and you my friend, can't f'uck with the facts. i still haven't heard you present any facts. you don't provide any further insight as to circumstances, who, what, when, why? i'm glad that you're fed up with me. i hope you ignore me. i hope that the TRUTH has just walked up and smacked you straight in your face and knocked you the f'uck out! please let me speak... because the american people have the right to hear THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH SO HELP US GOD...

besides, all i'm saying is... "look up this information yourself my fellow Americans. It's free and unbiased..." Now what could be wrong with wanting to find the truth? You should be doing the same thing if you were a REAL AMERICAN AND LOYAL TO AMERICANS FIRST, BEFORE YOUR LOYALTY TO ISRAEL. You should be telling AMERICANS to find out the truth also. Don't we Americans pride ourselves on TRUTH and JUSTICE. Why don't you encourage the other forum readers to find out the truth? please help me understand...


keithws and E1am,

please don't divert the focus of attention away from what's important. why are you doing that? Are you a Jewish sympathizer or Jewish yourself? If you are, there's nothing wrong with that, and I can understand where I might appear to you as a Jew hater. Even if I were, it would be my right to do so, because I'm an American and I have the right to "hate" if I wanted to. But in fact you are right, I do hate. You know who I hate... I hate Jews that are evil, as I hate Muslims that are evil... as I hate Christians that are evil... as I hate Buddhists that are evil... I hate all the evil in this world... But of course to you, I would "conveniently" appear only as a Jew hater. You already know where I stand on bin Laden. It is apparent by your post and reaction that you are another one of those perpertrators of misinformation. Again you try to divert the attention from what is important. Let me guess, are you one of those "evil" people I was talking about? If so, then f'uck you. You're gonna end up in hell anyway.

I assure you, I am not a racist and I don't think that all Jews are horrible people, just like not all Arabs are horrible people. In this world, there are only good people and bad people... and it doesn't matter what religion you are. If you're bad --- you're bad... If you're good --- you're good... so race, color, religion have nothing to do with a man of a pure heart and soul. i have endorsed Bush's call for a military response. it is totally justified. nobody attacks the united states and gets away with it.

so don't bring up "justified attacks" because I have not justified them. I have condemned them. But I do hear a lot of Jews "justifiy" that Israel is "their's to take back"... if this is not the most militant attitude I've ever heard, then I don't know what is. let's keep in perspective that Hebrews have been fighting wars for thousands of years... Everyone thought that just Arabs were the militant ones... But hey, chalk that up to a Jewish owned American Media for that...

yes, the focus should absolutely be foreign policy. the sooner we solve the israel / palestine problem, the sooner we can all get on the path towards peace. it won't happen overnight, and more innocents are guaranteed to die... but the sooner we start, the sooner peace begins. focusing all our efforts on blowing the s'hit outta bin Laden and not enough efforts on our foreign policy is bulls'hit, and a great way to get nothing done. We get bin Laden (if he REALLY is the one and not because he's the #1 suspect) now, but immediately aftewards, world leaders MUST MAKE THIS AN IMPORTANT PRIORITY within their national agendas and also A WORLD AGENDA. Of course every country has their own agendas and special interests, but we can now see what will surely happen again, if the Middle East issues are not resolved.

By now, I hope that forum readers have already done their own research and found out some facts:

1. the circumstances under which Jews "took" what was "rightfully theirs", the land which was formerly known as British-administered Palestine... who divided Palestine? Who lied to Arabs about returning the land? Who gave all that "occupied" land to Jews?

What were the British reasons for administering "occupied" lands anyway, and why did the British government pull out at the last second... could it be because they knew they dug themselves a big f'ucking ditch and war had already broken out and they were now "abandoning" the problem which they created... so they were going to let the UNITED NATIONS come in and MOP S'HIT UP FOR THEM.

2. The Jewish claim to the land of Israel is based on some thousand year old book that non-Jewish Americans don't give a flying f'uck about anyway...

3. all the UN slaps on the wrist and reprimands against the state of Israel for excessive force...

4. the fact that Hebrews have always been powerful both militarily and intellectually... everyone only assumed that it was the nomadic Arab tribes that were warlike... actually, Hebrews are extremely warlike themselves... but the media doesn't paint that picture, does it? It's the Israelis that are all the victims...

5. The fact is, the Jews and Arabs probably will never achieve peace... because Jews will not recognize that before they came, there were people already living there in peace and cooperation. just because there was no formal "western democratic government" as we have it, doesn't mean that their was not a nomadic government... the Arabs had their own laws and lived in peace and helped the British defeat the Ottoman Turks. In return, the Arabs living in that region were lied to by British-Jews, and the land was taken from them by British-Jews and divided to establish a state for Israel. I guess they shouldn't be angry at all and bomb the f'uck outta Israel,eh? Perhaps they should take the diplomatic approach...

Keithws thinks that we should totally f'uck up bin Laden, but that the Arabs should be diplomatic with Israel... You can't possibly be serious?

6. Of course Israeli's are happy to abide by UN law... they have no f'ucking choice but to. It's INTERNATIONAL LAW you dumb f'uck. That land was stolen from Arabs and given to Jews, so what the f'uck do Jews have to complain about? Jews don't have s'hit to complain about... But how the f'uck do you want Arabs to react when they're wronged in the first place? How do you expect for Arabs to NOT WANT YOU AND ALL YOUR FAMILY DEAD? Are you ignorant? It definately appears so.

THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING... BOTH SIDES CLAIM TO BE VICTIMS... THEREFORE, FORUM READERS SHOULD DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH VIA INTERNET AND DETERMINE FOR THEMSELVES, WHO ARE THE REAL VICTIMS HERE...

Don't speculate, find out the facts and enlighten yourself along the way. the reason bin Laden is the #1 suspect is because we have so much f'ucking information on this guy... we know he has the contacts, the financial resources, the training, the balls to do it to... do you guys know how we know so much? because the CIA f'ucking created him... trained him, paid him, supported him... that's how we know he is capable of doing this... because anybody else would never have training or know how to pull it off...

as for NGO's E1am, you're not suggesting that those NGO's are helping entirely out of humanitarian reasons, are you? shall I present some historical / statistical data now and make a complete idiot of you? Dear Forum readers, please do some research on NGO's - NON GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS in Palestine... see how many of these NGO's are getting funded by "government" agencies.

what types of research do you think a good proportion of these NGO's do? who the f'uck knows? but many are funded by foreign security agencies... i wonder what for...

let the readers find out for themselves...

the truth is out there, just do a bit of research and dig it up!

God Day and God Bless

[flyinclockchoke]

Hookah...

i'm glad to hear that you are also a seeker of truth. But as for my arguing skills, if you would care to step into the octagon with me on this subject, i'd be more than happy to tap you out with my patented flying clock choke... if you don't think that it can physically be done, i'd be more than happy to tap you with it... they said the same thing about the flying omaplata, but I've perfected that too... ok, just a little humor in light of all this bickering...

i'm glad that my efforts have paid off... I hope there are more readers willing to do their own thinking instead of just listening to the news and shouting, "kill, kill, kill"... at least understand what the fundamental truths and facts are before we shout, "kill, kill, kill"...

The truth is like Jiu-jitsu... all I need is to seek the truth, obtain the truth, and practice the truth and we shall overcome the mountain of deceit and lies, no matter how big or strong or heavy it is... and anybody can learn it and benefit from it's awesome ability to empower... you can be any color, race, religion, ... sexual preference... ok, just kidding about the sexual preference thing... hehehe... (more humor)

[Masala]

FLying,

I've presented many facts, and as for your stiring up the pot and all that, to be perfectly honest, I haven't read 90% of your posts on the subject so I'm not sure what you mean. I don't have time to read your every point, nor do I hve the time (or inclination) to give this debate my full attention. I've been there and done that a hundred times; I've done the research and written whole disertations about the subject, complete with footnotes and documentation, and I really cannot go there again. It doesn't matter what either of us says, we have our opinion and we each have the sets of 'facts' that we believe are the truth, as does everyone else.



So, good luck on your debate.

[Qkfx]

idiot again

Listening to you praise your own debating skills almost caused me to piss myself. What a joke. You quote twisted facts from leftist and Arab sources to justify yourself. You in no way seek Truth as is evidenced by the fact that you consistently come down on the side of terrorist and murderers. You ignore the facts of Isaels history which predates the existense of Islam and the fact that they have had a continuous presence there for over 3,000 years that at least equals if not exceeds that of the Arabs. What is obvious is that you have no inclination to seek truth, your heart is so sick and twisted that you side with murderers. I actually feel sorry for you.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Clockchoke,

I see what you're trying to say, but man these guys are eating you alive. I know were you're coming from, but these guys reading your posts twist your words around, then say you're twisting Arab and Democratic words. I didn't mean to say anything about your debating skills, but its easy to just say some facts back to you about the situation instead of calling you an idiot. The intelligent forum members have noted this.

As far as the rest of you, you guys are just as ignorant as the Palestinians you hate. Sure, they celebrated when all this happened; but you will celebrate when Afghanistan is bombed. People celebrate when their enemy lose, and thats what the Palestinians did there. Granted, they didn't realize the innocent lives weren't the enemy; but what do you expect from a third world country where all they learn is to wake up and see soldiers kill their people with machine guns while they fight back with dirt clods. This isn't a question of who owns what land, but the unfair and horrific treatment the Palestinians get. When the Americans got unfair treatment didn't they fight for their land and have the American Revolution. This is on the same lines except no one knows who to blame.

Please guys, Clockchoke (or like some of you worldclass debaters have labled him, Cockchoke) is just seeking some truth to this. He didn't say a single anti-Semitism comment and everyone is jumping on him calling him a Jew hater. I have to go to work now. So I hope no one twists my words around and calls me a Jew Hater.

And Clock Choke, fear my flying uhhh... umm... Forearm Choke!