A BJJ threat on a BJJ Message board?! Yes I've gone mad

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Question to you guys out there, but do you guys train with Heel Hooks?

I ask this question because a lot of fundamantilists out there don't let their students train with Heel Hooks. However, it seems the new trend at schools that I've been to is to use ANY kind of sub. Now, IMO its good to learn leg locks and neck cranks because it gives you more options; but I thought a part of not using leg locks is to help you use your guard and pass the guard better. I must say, I used to train without leg locks and then moved to a new a school where they allowed leg locks. For the first few weeks I was getting leg locked from all angles and I thought to myself that I should've been able to use leg locks all along. Then, after I learned to defend, blue belts who have up to 3 years experience where not able to leg lock me or pass my guard! In fact, when someone goes to my leg I will either escape or even sub them with a leg lock, and trust me I'm worse than them at leg locks.

Then, around a week ago I had the first Heel Hook crisis. I was feeling kind of in a bad mood and my friend who annoys me beyond belief started sparring with me. He went for a leg lock on me and tried his damndest to tap me out. So I got pissed and heel hooked him VERY hard. He tapped and all was well until the next day when he couldn't walk on it. Then yesterday, a black belt showed up to my school and I rolled with him. I ended up in his heel hook and pop, my knee felt like it was gonna fall out. Fortunatly however, this morning my knee is fine and I see no side effects, but I'm worried.

Do you guys think Heel Hooks are a restriction and a dangerous one at that? Or do you guys think its all part of the game to get injurded doing a Heel Hook? I was thinking a good idea is to only do Heel Hooks once a week in sparring so you get the leg lock motion down, but not restrict your guard or guard passing. What does everyone think?

[Szczepankiewicz]

I can't answer your question directly, but I think I understand your point.

When I train, I want to train without leaving anything out. My philosophy is: To be able to defend from a technique, you must know how to perform a technique.

With this I am constantly pestering my sensei for more techniques that are not necessarily in our curriculum.

I would say, were I to have the opportunity train in BJJ, that I would want the full gambit when I train. But I would also have to overcome my pride and tap when the lock is set to avoid injury.

So, in my uninformed opinion, bring the heel hooks.


SZ

[Mickey Finn]

Did someone say fundamentalists!?!?!?!?

Where’s my gun…

[hounddog]

Its not the technique, but its the schmuck who is applying it that makes it dangerous. Could have been a knee bar, arm bar or whatever. I think most instructors don't want to see heelhooks used because a lot of guys train out of control.

I wouldn't want to train with anybody who gets angry during a roll so I say bring on all techniques and ban the assholes. Maybe you should observe the "check your ego at the door" philosophy at your school.
-hD

[keithws]

LOL Mickey.....

Me and my garage inc buds practice heel hooks but don't use them in sparring. Bottom line, I think it's a dangerous move even when you're training with trusted partners.

I freakin hate the way your knee feels even when just practicing a heel hook! Wicked move for sure.

And Hounddog's right. Wtf are you thinking by heel hooking someone hard and fast that's supposed be your bud? You're talking about destoying the dude's ACL. Definitely gotta check the ego and anger at the door!

later.....

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Nope, I stand by my heel hooking him. You guys don't know him, and he's only my bud through association. In fact, I get ditched because of him because our other friends don't want to hang out with him and know there's no other way then to ditch us both. I don't see how hurting someone who has upset me EVERY day for the past 3 years is an act of my white belt ego. I've never purposely tried to hurt someone with a sub except him, and never with a heel hook before this either.

Its not the technique, but its the schmuck who is applying it that makes it dangerous. Could have been a knee bar, arm bar or whatever. I think most instructors don't want to see heelhooks used because a lot of guys train out of control.

I dont know about that. I've had arm bars, chokes, and other moves put on extemely hard and all it left was a soreness. In the situation of a heel hook, putting it on enough to feel pain is enough for an injury. This is evident by me sparring with the black belt and him hurting my knee just by me being in the heel hook position.

[E1am]

No Hookah, you're a fuucking pr!ck. If you have problems with the guy you should bring up with him face to face outside of class. Purposefully injuring someone during sparring is some puussy sh!t.

[flyinclockchoke]

yay to heel hooks...

there are a couple people I know who won't even bother to pass your guard, because they know how to pull off the heel hook, fast and hard... they don't even bother to pass! when they lie back, they might not get you right away, but they know how to control you and not allow you to move around... sooner or later, they always manage to get a heel...

best way to avoid heel hooks is to learn how to use / defend against them!

but harming a dude in class is kinda bummer... especially the knee/ankle... cause you hyperextend the dude's elbow, and he's still walking around the next day... going to work, driving his car, doing stuff...

hyperextend the knee, and homies lucky to be walking the next day, if at all... and limping for a couple of weeks minimum... lucky to be training at all in 6 months...

[Mad Dog]

Hounddog is correct. Any technique in the wrong hands can be dangerous. It's all about restraint. I would rather release an effective submission hold and lose on the mat than hurt someone who doesn't have the sense to tap. Of course, later, I would talk to the guy and let him know everyone isn't as considerate as me and he could get hurt in the future. Then you have the guys who whip into full extension on a submission and don't even give you a chance to tap!!! I rough them up whenever possible...

[flyinclockchoke]

eyes closed?

does anyone ever roll w/ their eyes closed... i've been trying it for the last couple of weeks, and I have to admit, you can get used to it really quickly... you move much slower because you can't really see... but you actually "SEE" more...

because I can't see anymore... i stay totally tight on my opponent because i have to feel him. i just take my time and stay heavy and sticky... sometimes i'll just hold side mount, maybe even for 3-4 minutes while i'm trying to figure out what to do...

try it and see if you like it... i pretty much train exclusively with my eyes closed now... unless it's learning new techniques or something or hardcore sparring... drills are great with the eyes closed...

[JaredExtreme]

hooks

At my school you aren't taught ANY lower body submissions until you have been training for about 8 months and proved you can control yourself. I definetly think this is a GOOD thing. I've seen white belts come in on their second class, and end up hurting the blue belt practicing with them because they do it too hard. And that's just a simple armbar. So IMO there's a certain level a student must accomplish before learning lower body submissions.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

First off, the guy is fine. I may have exagerrated the story a bit, but he can walk fine the next day and the doctor said there was nothing wrong with him. I didn't do the heel hook that hard. Everyone of you guys don't know the situation, and if I talk to him outside of class he'll just take everything the wrong way and act like a little girl. Thats why I'm stuck with him and none of my friends talk to him; some of which have been friends with him since they were in 4th grade. If he's being annoying like going a 100% on leg lock on me after saying he wasn't going to go hard, then I think I have every right to put him in his place. I just wanted ihm to feel it, and thats what that was; not a leg amputating injury.

[E1am]

Well, that's a different story. The way originally described it sounded a lot worse. It's still not good and I think the two of you need to learn something about restraint on the mat. BTW, I think you should train heel hooks. But maybe not until you have a certain amount of experience. That way you have time to develop your guard and have hopefully learned some control.

[hounddog]

HSC -

i still think its lame that you would try to hurt someone on purpose. its not like you two were in a fight - you were training with agreed upon or assumed ground rules. Guys that did what you did didn't last long at my school.

If you were good you'd be able to apply the heel hook slowly and give him time to tap. To just crank on it is a prick thing to do. Also, if you can't injure someone with an armbar or a kneebar than you are not doing it right.

If you really want to put this dude in his place just get on top and knee ride his stomach really hard or whatever. There are ways to put someone in their place without injuring them.

happy training.
-hD

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

houndog

Ok, I'll admit that trying to heel hook someone to injure him on purpose is pretty bad. I mean, one of my other best friends injured his knee in basketball, and that isn't even close to the kind of crap a heel hook can do to your knee so I'll admit I'm wrong. I do whoop him up all but my knee in the belly is my worst position so there's not much I can do. Most of the time if I want to take out my anger on him I'll get his back, tap him to a rear naked, let go and repeat cycle. Or I'll go Vale Tudo on him but obviously not to a point where he even gets bruises.

I promise you guys I won't try to purposefully injure someone with a sub again in training.