Those Crazy Kung Fu guys at it again

[GinSueDog]

Man, you guys are starting to sound like the guys over at KFO when they defend Kung Fu's lack of performance in MMA events. Hell some of your arguements are exactly the same as some of theres. Kind of ironic if the truth be told. -ED

[TracyKarate]

It's wise at times to try to step back and see things from a neutral point of view. What are my styles weaknesses? How can they be capitalized on? How would I deal with these techniques if I were the attacker? An honest assesment of oneself can lead to a greater self confidence. From that point there is no need to take personal issues when ones style does not fare well in a certain situation, after all this is inevitable as the sun rise. Learn from these situations and make yourself and your art stronger.

[brassmonkey8]

"Kind of ironic if the truth be told"
Weird how the truth would be the same here as there huh? I gotta disagree about the arguments being the same, I think there pretty unsimiliar over kfo you'll have alot of people talkinga bout dim mak and other nonsense, there's been some isolated good showing of Chinese martial arts in NHB though when skilled credible players step to the plate as the same with Judo and BJJ players, really there hasnt been many step to the plate yet but the same could be said for BJJ/Judo/Karate etc. players stepping to the plate of Sanshou but its just what type of competition your focusing on.

[GinSueDog]

Brassmonkey,
I am just saying that the argument going on here over this tournament and the arguments the KFO people have defending Kung Fu against the UFC or MMA in general right now sound very similar. Come on, you guys are virtually saying the same things, the rules favored the Chinese, the point system was unfair, and so on. I am not taking one side over the other, just pointing out that it is more then a little ironic and maybe a little funny.-ED

[brassmonkey8]

"Brassmonkey,
I am just saying that the argument going on here over this tournament and the arguments the KFO people have defending Kung Fu against the UFC or MMA in general right now sound very similar."

Well maybe your right to tell you the truth I for awhile have avoided those type of threads on kfo so maybe you are right. Hmmm I think now I get your saying that the arguments are flip flopped now, that is the dumb arguments kung fu guys using now we see mma guys using, is this what your saying?

[GinSueDog]

Brassmonkey,
Yeah, but I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing. I do think the Chinese are extremely bias and have shown this is the past. It is kind of funny though that alot of the MMA guys are crying foul.-ED

[bobby_steeles]

Originally posted by TracyKarate
It's wise at times to try to step back and see things from a neutral point of view. What are my styles weaknesses? How can they be capitalized on? How would I deal with these techniques if I were the attacker?

why don't youtake a step back and try to realize why you are such a dork...

[flyinclockchoke]

LKFMDC

I spoke directly with the officials in charge of the Beijing event and the Chinese officials who stipulated the rules told me VERY EXPLICITLY that knees were not allowed to be thrown to the head... only the body. In fact, the MT competitors had points deducted from fouls by throwing knees to the head.

Unless you have spoken directly to the Chinese officials in charge of establishing the rules for the GUANGZHOU event, you don't really know what happened besides reading it second hand from biased sources.

As I said before, SANDA has it's merits. But Chinese KUNG FU is not the end all be all, either. You are only as good as how you train. MT in most respects, is basically just STRIKING/STANDING NHB. I am willing to put any STRIKING STANDUP art against MT to see what happens. If you are not trained to fight NHB standup, I don't care what style you call yourself. You're gonna get your ass handed to you. The only reason MT is so effective is because they've had hundreds of years to develop their NHB style, with basically anything goes, much like how the Gracies did with grappling and groundfighting. It's because they've trained with the mindset and framework of a lack of rules (pretty much close to lack of rules)...

I guess from your observation that SANDA is better than boxing, right? Afterall, Sanda beat boxers, so that must make western boxing a crock of shit, huh? Why don't you talk to some of the Chinese officials first, instead of hearing your information second hand.

As for the trillion bajillion dollars, I'd be more than happy to pay up (as if I had the money to begin with) if I'm wrong, providing you won your bet fair and square. There's no shame or loss of honor on my part. I can admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. But in this situation, I have first hand information, plus I actually attended the event, live in Beijing... How about yourself?

The thai boxers were not Lumpini champions. They were amatuer MT fighters. Even the Chinese Officials told me that. Why would they lie to me about that?

[LKFMDC]

Flyingclockchoke,

You do realize there were TWO events don't you? In the first event, China put its amateur champions (from provincial and national championships) against a mixed crew of Muay Thai fighters. In the first event SOME of the Muay Thai fghters MIGHT have been considered "amateur". In the first event, you are correct, there were no knees to the head. Nor were there elbows. The result of the first event was 4-3 China.

In the SECOND event, knees to the head WERE 100% LEGAL. Please don't confuse people here by saying otherwise, unless you yourself have confused the two different events. ONE POINT was deducted from a Thai fighter in the FIRST event.

In addition. the fighters in the SECOND event were NOT "amateur" by any means. Anyone who lives in a camp and trains everyday all day is not an amateur. There really is no such thing as an amateur in Thailand. Again, you seem to be confusing the two DIFFERENT events.

And finally, you set up a straw man to knock down. No one said San Da is "better" or "best". That is the Muay Thai people. The Muay Thai fanatics have for years touted events in which amateurs fought Pro Muay Thai fighters under their rules with their officials as evidence of "superiority". They of course leave out the times when the Thais have lost. This is not the first time Thais have lost you know.

Muay Thai fanatics scoff at anything other than Muay Thai, now it's fun to watch them squirm as they experience losses. And not just in China. Here in the US San Shou fighters are beating Muay Thai fighters, UNDER MUAY THAI RULES EVEN!

So, yes, you owe me a trillion bajillion dollars

[flyinclockchoke]

LKFMDC

Dude,

Did you even read my post? I was clear about there being 2 events. One in BEIJING, and one in GUANGZHOU. There's no confusion on my part. I just want to know how you came about your information. Did you read it, or hear it or how? Did you get the information first hand or was it passed on to you? Who are your sources?

Being of Chinese descent, I would love to believe SANDA is the best thing in the world. All I'm saying is that until you've spoken directly with the THAI and CHINESE officials firsthand, I wouldn't take anybody's word for it.

Having spent considerable time here in China, I'm familar with the way things are run here, and the martial arts scene. But I tell you what, here's what I'm gonna do for my buddy LKFDMC. I happen to know who the event organizers were, and also who the THAI coaches were. How about I call up the guys in Guangzhou for you and ask what happened? I'll even find out the truth for ya. How does that sound? Fair enough for ya? If you are right, you can have the trillion bajillion dollars.

As for the "lumpini champions"... in the first event in BEIJING, the chinese press reported the thai fighters as being lumpini champions, even the foreigner fighters with 6 months training. Training all day doesn't mean anything if you don't fight in a ring, or fight in a ring wearing protective gear from head to toe. Chinese athletes are all professional athletes, because they are supported and subsidized by the government. They train 5-6 hours of SANDA per day, including conditioning, strength, stretching, etc... But that don't mean shit. And due to a long history of propoganda and misrepresentation, I can only ASSUME that the chinese press also reported that the MT fighters were "lumpini champions" for the GUANGZHOU event. Afterall, they reported it for the BEIJING event, so there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't report it for the GUANGZHOU event. It's called sensationalism, and journalists use it all the time. Just so there is no more confusion on MY part, BEIJING and GUANGZHOU were two separate events.

It's useless to talk about who beat who and what beat what. When SANDA fought the WESTERN BOXERS several years back, several boxers actually beat their Chinese counterparts. And, the boxers weren't allowed to kick or throw. And these boxers were f'ucking scrubs! How could that happen if the SANDA fighters could punch, kick and throw? It's useless to debate style vs style. It's how you prepare for your fight that's important. Again, read my last post... just so there's no more confusion on my part...

[LKFMDC]

I've been involved in the San Shou movement since it first began as an organized sport under the IWuF. I introduced San Shou to the Northeastern United States in 1995 prior to the 3rd World San Shou Championships were held in Baltimore. I am an IWuF referee and judge and have trained three US national champions and a member of the US National San Shou team. I have many friends and connections and spoke to people involved in organizing the event and important political figures such as Xia Bahua. As for the Thai fighters, two I recognized as being ranked in Thailand. One is in the Lumpinee top 10 currently and I believe held a Lumpinee title as recently as a year ago (though the later I am not 100% sure of). Another is ranked at Rajadman (sp?), the 2nd most important stadium in Thailand

As I said, the two events were very different. The first Thai team included non Thai fighters who might be considered amateurs. The second Thai team was much higher quality

At the first event, there were NO elbows at all and no knees to the head. At the second event they allowed elbows and knees to the head. They wore elbow pads, Stadium Man brand made in Thailand which I also have in my gym and use. I can assure you the pads at best sometimes stop cuts but do not stop a KO any more than a glove in boxing stops a KO. If the best the Thai team can offer is complaints about the pads, they don't have much of a case

[sidder]

No. The best complaint is the dirty-as-hell judges who, in their patriotic fervor, just handed over matches to their undeserving countrymen. I'll say it again. Bring 'em to the K-1 and we'll see how long they can manage to remain conscious under ANY rules!!!!

[LKFMDC]

Sidder, maybe you should READ the posts before responding to them. For but two examples

I already cited the fact that TWO San Da fighters from China participated in last year's K-1 Asian regional tournament and made it to the semi-finals, beating some well respected K-1 fightes along the way. And when they lost, they did so on points

So so much for your claim they would get KO'd in K-1, but thanks for playing

The event had 2 Chinese judges, 2 Thai judges and one European. So much for your other claim

[Arclight]

Just as an aside I am also Chinese, I'll tell you for a fact that on the mainland there is no such thing as journalistic integrity when the gov't is involved, ESPECIALLY if it's something involving national pride like a China vs. Thailand match like the above.

And yes, unless you talk to the judges or competitors, or even if you do, you can't really be sure about the veracity of what they say because they'll probably be too concerned about saving face for themselves or giving face to their countrymen to say anything negative/incriminating about either the judging process or who really won the various matches, etc.

Unless you've lived there or are from there it's pretty hard to understand our cultural dynamics (some of them not so great) just from having Chinese friends or associates.

Paul

[sidder]

Moreover, KMFDM (or whatever your name is), I already said that one of the guys who entered the K-1 was very good, but that he did alot of muay thai himself. But the sanshou world is so unstandardized that I have known a few people (one of whom admits that he wouldn't last 30 seconds in a Muay thai ring) who've cleaned up in North American competition. But, if you don't believe me, go watch any North American San shou competition. There are SOME skilled guys, but most of them can't kickbox and don't know how to grapple well and you just wind up with this abysmal hybrid of half-assed lametude. But if you dig that, then more power to ya, jerky.