Peace without war.

[Szczepankiewicz]

It was estimated in 1945 that for the US to invade Japan, 500,000 US soldiers were expected to die.

On top of that, anywhere from 2 to 10 million Japanese (soldiers and civilians) were expected to die.

The United States Government could have avoided using the atomic bomb.

The Japanese Government could have surrendered prior to August 6, 1945.

The Japanese Government could have surrendered at any time between 7 December 1941 and 5 August 1945 to avoid the nuclear horror.

The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to attack Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to invade Manchuria, China, the Philippines, Malaysia, New Guinea and numerous other Asian nations.

The United States Government could have spared the awful deaths of 100,000 + Japanese civilians.

The Japanese Government could have spared the lives of 10-50 million Asian (including Japanese), European, Australian and American lives who died much worse deaths that vaporization.

But I guess you're right, the Imperialistic United States should have done the whole thing differently.

As for killing innocent civilians, yes, I agree that it is wrong.

But when civilians support the war machine that propogates the genocide of others, I do not believe they are innocent any longer.

Ah, but you say that all the New Yorkers were doing the same thing? They were fat cattle working to support a corrupt and evil American government spreading hatred and subjugating all the peoples of the world?

I don't think so.

I think if the US shutdown all globalization efforts, pulled out all foreign economic and military support for one year (365 days) the world, to include all the European and West Asian nations who absolutely despise the US would be begging for its return.

I think the US is the only thing standing between the Arab Nations and the impending retribution of the Isreali Juggernaught that is just chomping at the bit.

I think the US is the only thing keeping North and South Korea from mutual destruction.

Keeping the Pakistanis and the Indians from the same.

Keeping China from unloading all of their war surplus on the tiny island of Tiawan.

You bet the US is looking out for itself, but they are trying to keep the rest of the world from chopping each other up in the process.

You're very right in the fact that the US is far from perfect, but I think it's the best thing going.

There is no place I'd rather be. But, in your case, I can see you don't agree.

SZ

[Maui Jim]

Afghan Citizens

Here's my question WHY didn't the remaining Afghan civilians get the hell out with the smart ones at the beginning of the campaign.
They killed over 5000 US citizens of ours so screw'em, they should feel lucky, let the bombs fly!

[brothaman]

They????

Maui Jim you scare me.

The majority of Afgan People that are dying right now are just ordinary civilians like you and me. The overwhelming majority of them are lowly farmers and villagers who have NOTHING and most likely just didn't have the means or ability to leave. It costs money to supply food and transportation for the hundreds of miles they will trek in the desert to survive.

They are poor, starving and dying right now. U.S. relief efforts are a joke, this was admitted on Dateline NBC. I don't think it is a question of whether they were smart enough to leave or not but rather a choice to either starve to death in the desert or to ride out the bombing at home.

The terrorist networks responsible for the attacks, aren't the ones starving to death and dying in the desert, The civilian people are. I'm sure that most of them have never even heard of the World Trade Center. Their deaths have nothing to with justice or righteousness.

This new era of war is such bs.

The anti- U.S. perpetrators can't do any real damage to the military so they attack its people with planes and anthrax.

The U.S. can't get to the real attackers so they destroy Cities and Villages.

The cycle of World Destruction just keeps getting worse.

bm

[Maui Jim]

Happy Halloween BOO!

Boo !
Have you seen the remaining people in Afghanistan? selling there wares and living as if nothing is wrong.
Is it possible that the Talaban are forcing them to stay for human shields and a excuses as a death toll propaganda?
Who else is dropping food? Not the Japanese, not the Israelis, no just the US and they should be grateful for that. And if it's not getting to them it's because of the Talaban taking it.
If you could have been at the World Trade Center Towers when it went down with blood and death all around you, you might think differently. To kill the enemy the innocent will die too.
It's the Talaban fault for the death of there people not the US.
So let the bombs fly and let God sort'em out.
If there is a god. We all be better off if we where all Atheist anyway.
To many god dam wars started in the name of god anyway.
If this so called god doesn't come back soon he's sure going to be behind in in child support for not visiting more often.

[flyinclockchoke]

Szczepankiewicz

It was estimated in 1945 that for the US to invade Japan, 500,000 US soldiers were expected to die.
TRUE, and we sure as hell couldn't let that happen!

On top of that, anywhere from 2 to 10 million Japanese (soldiers and civilians) were expected to die.
Even if this were true, it's totally irrelevant. Had the Japanese not given up after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USA would have continued to drop A-Bombs, even if it meant exterminating the whole island. It's a good thing that they did surrender, because we didn't have anymore A-Bombs.

The United States Government could have avoided using the atomic bomb.
...I thought we'd already been through this.

The Japanese Government could have surrendered prior to August 6, 1945.
I don't understand what point you're trying to argue. Because they didn't surrender, we should use the Bomb?

The Japanese Government could have surrendered at any time between 7 December 1941 and 5 August 1945 to avoid the nuclear horror.
But the USA dropped bombs on Japanese civilians, not the Japanese government. I don't understand your line of logic.

The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to attack Pearl Harbor.
Totally irrelevant to what we're arguing about. Besides, Pearl Harbor was a military installation.

The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to invade Manchuria, China, the Philippines, Malaysia, New Guinea and numerous other Asian nations.
Again, totally irrelevant to what we're arguing about.

The United States Government could have spared the awful deaths of 100,000 + Japanese civilians.

The Japanese Government could have spared the lives of 10-50 million Asian (including Japanese), European, Australian and American lives who died much worse deaths that vaporization.
So if it's ok for them to do it, then it's ok for us to do it. If that's the case. We are terrorists too! There should be no double standard. If we're going to call other people terrorists and then turn around and say, well if he did it, we're gonna do it too... but he's a terrorist, we're not... Sorry, that don't fly...

But I guess you're right, the Imperialistic United States should have done the whole thing differently.


As for killing innocent civilians, yes, I agree that it is wrong.

But when civilians support the war machine that propogates the genocide of others, I do not believe they are innocent any longer.
So now their civilians support the war machine. Sounds like you're justifying again. How are Japanese civilians any different than American civilians? Their civilians are evil and expendable, but ours are not. So all our citizens who now agree that we should be bombing Afghanistan are also supporting our war machine, right? Are their lives expendable?

Ah, but you say that all the New Yorkers were doing the same thing? They were fat cattle working to support a corrupt and evil American government spreading hatred and subjugating all the peoples of the world?

I don't think so.
But the Japanese civilians for sure, were fat cattle working to support a corrupt and evil Japanese government spreading hatred and subjugating all the peoples of the world, right?

I think if the US shutdown all globalization efforts, pulled out all foreign economic and military support for one year (365 days) the world, to include all the European and West Asian nations who absolutely despise the US would be begging for its return.
You know this to be true, right? You've been to these other countries and talked to their citizens and understand all the little intricacies of what's going on in their governments and how they relate to our US government, huh? Keep dreaming.

I think the US is the only thing standing between the Arab Nations and the impending retribution of the Isreali Juggernaught that is just chomping at the bit.
Israeli retribution? That's the funny part. The Israelis are the terrorists here. They forced themselves onto land that didn't belong to them. They murdered and displaced innocent Arabs from their homes. They've been doing it for the last 50 years. By what right do they have to exact RETRIBUTION on a people that they have made suffer? The Israelis have brought nothing but pain and suffering to that region for the last 50 years. They have no right to RETRIBUTION. They've murdered and destroyed the lives of infinately more Arabs in the last 50 years. They have the most infractions against them, of any UN Charter nation, for use of excessive force. Now, powerful Jewish lobbies and influential decision makers, help shape the US foreign policy in favor of a murderous little country. They're using our tax dollars and our government support to buy weapons and bullets to kill Arabs with rocks in their hands. All because they have the "right" to Jeruselum because it says so in their Torah.

I think the US is the only thing keeping North and South Korea from mutual destruction.
North and South Korea are solving their problems on their own just fine. In fact, the USA should stay out of their business and let 2 brothers work out their own problems.

Keeping the Pakistanis and the Indians from the same.
If Pakistan and India really went to war, the USA wouldn't be able to do jack shit to stop it. They aren't going to war because they're not stupid enough to risk everything they have.

Keeping China from unloading all of their war surplus on the tiny island of Tiawan.
China would never in a million years unload all of their "war surplus" on the tiny island of Taiwan. It's just a fabricated story for the USA to sell second-rate arms to Taiwan. The only major rising economic and military super power left in the world that the USA can't dip their fingers into yet is China, so the USA needs to keep China in check.

You bet the US is looking out for itself, but they are trying to keep the rest of the world from chopping each other up in the process.
You are extremely jaded. I'm sure you've never lived outside the USA for any lengthy period of time, so I can't blame you. That's ok. It's not your fault that your parents never bothered to educate you about foreign cultures or how things are done in other parts of the world. After all, you're an American, and you live in the greatest most powerful country in the world... why bother learning about others... they should learn about you. By what right does the United States have to be a Global Police Force. Just because of it's military strength? If we're so honorable, why does the CIA rig elections and send death squads and promote terrorism in other parts of the world? Because it's in our interests?

You're very right in the fact that the US is far from perfect, but I think it's the best thing going.
There is no such thing as best. You only think it's the best because that's all you know. Most people who have been to places like London would agree that the standard of living is far better, in addition to being lower violent crime, etc... If you want to get really technical, there are quite a few places with lower crime, freedom of speech, better standard of living and economic power, but not military strength. So yes, the USA has the greatest military strength in the world. So from a standard of living point of view, it is not the "best thing going".

There is no place I'd rather be. But, in your case, I can see you don't agree.
You haven't been anywhere else. How would you even know? If you're simply just trying to be patriotic, then cool. I can understand that. That's fine. But there are other places on this planet that are just as nice.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I know you don't get my point. I have tried to type slowly and use small words. I have tried to site historical facts, and separate the facts I have found from the opinion's I have formed.

But you're right, you don't get my point, you WON'T get my point. So what IS the point eh?

[flyinclockchoke]

Szczepankiewicz

It was estimated in 1945 that for the US to invade Japan, 500,000 US soldiers were expected to die.
Pure speculation

On top of that, anywhere from 2 to 10 million Japanese (soldiers and civilians) were expected to die.
Pure speculation


The United States Government could have avoided using the atomic bomb.
Pure speculation


The Japanese Government could have surrendered prior to August 6, 1945.
Pure speculation


The Japanese Government could have surrendered at any time between 7 December 1941 and 5 August 1945 to avoid the nuclear horror.
Pure speculation


The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to attack Pearl Harbor.
Pure speculation


The Japanese Government could have canceled their plans to invade Manchuria, China, the Philippines, Malaysia, New Guinea and numerous other Asian nations.
Pure speculation


The United States Government could have spared the awful deaths of 100,000 + Japanese civilians.
Pure speculation


The Japanese Government could have spared the lives of 10-50 million Asian (including Japanese), European, Australian and American lives who died much worse deaths that vaporization.
Pure speculation


But I guess you're right, the Imperialistic United States should have done the whole thing differently.
Pure speculation


As for killing innocent civilians, yes, I agree that it is wrong.
Your personal opinion

But when civilians support the war machine that propogates the genocide of others, I do not believe they are innocent any longer.
Your personal opinion


Ah, but you say that all the New Yorkers were doing the same thing? They were fat cattle working to support a corrupt and evil American government spreading hatred and subjugating all the peoples of the world?

I don't think so.
Your personal opinion

I think if the US shutdown all globalization efforts, pulled out all foreign economic and military support for one year (365 days) the world, to include all the European and West Asian nations who absolutely despise the US would be begging for its return.
Your personal opinion

I think the US is the only thing standing between the Arab Nations and the impending retribution of the Isreali Juggernaught that is just chomping at the bit.
Your personal opinion

I think the US is the only thing keeping North and South Korea from mutual destruction.
Your personal opinion

Keeping the Pakistanis and the Indians from the same.
Your personal opinion

Keeping China from unloading all of their war surplus on the tiny island of Tiawan.
Your personal opinion

You bet the US is looking out for itself, but they are trying to keep the rest of the world from chopping each other up in the process.
Your personal opinion


You're very right in the fact that the US is far from perfect, but I think it's the best thing going.
Your personal opinion

There is no place I'd rather be. But, in your case, I can see you don't agree.
Your personal opinion

And you're supposed to be studying to become a professional mediator? You're in some serious trouble. Shit, we're all in some serious trouble.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Absolultely. Nothing I posted was listed as fact. I stated that "I tried to list historical facts..." Estimates and personal opinions were pretty self-evident. But thanks for making it easier for other forum members to differentiate.

I have two term papers coming up, if I send it to you can you outline them as well? I am sure my instructors would appreciate the effort.


Thanks man,

SZ