RoyceGracie more important than Bruce Lee.

[JaredExtreme]

So anyway, I was lounging here on the sofa watching Lizzy McGuire on the Disney channel (she's mad hawt), and this thought randomly popped into my head. We all know that Bruce Lee has millions of fans who worship his every teaching and movie. If you go into a general martial arts store that sells Karate/TKW/Judo stuff, you'll find posters, books, and other paraphenalia idolizing Lee. Why? This guy made some movies, wrote some books, and the martial art he 'created' is simply a collection of techniques from other arts. Does this disgust anyone else that the general public holds this actor in such great esteem and believes he was so "deadly and powerful" even though he never competed in MMA or any other tournaments?

On the other hand, you have Royce Gracie. He isn't some pretty-boy actor who has some cosmic philosophy, but he UNARGUABLY changed the face of martial arts as we know it today. Yet, how many people know of his name? How many people have Royce Gracie posters on their wall?

I'm not be-rating Lee. He was a superb martial artist/actor and probly could have kicked my ass in 4 seconds. But, what I AM saying is that in comparison to Royce, Lee had very LITTLE impact on MA. Despite this, Lee is held on a ridiculously high pedistool by the general public, which I do not believe he deserves.

[SweepEm]

J.E.
I believe you forget the impact that Bruce Lee has done.
It's like the old "pebble in the pond and the ripples that go outward..."
Bruce's "Impact" is still being felt.
So, I disagree with your statement that Bruce Lee made little impact.

Bruce Lee was my inspiration into martial arts and I first started with Kung Fu.

If you talk to many people, they were influenced by Bruce Lee into studying martial arts.

I would use the term pioneer in describing Bruce Lee. He wasn't the first martial artist to popularize martial arts but he was a pioneer.
Same with Royce Gracie.

[Arrgh]

I have to agree with SweepEm. There's several points I believe you're overlooking.

1. Bruce Lee was one of the first (if not the first) known martial artists to operate outside of a "system" or "style".
2. He was one of the first to prove the effectiveness of boxing within the martial arts.
3. He was one of the first to promote attribute development to improve a fighters performance.
4. He was one of the first cross-trainers of the martial arts.
5. Though Bruce didn't compete in tournaments, he did train some of the top fighters of his era. (Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Chuck Norris)

Through his film work, Bruce has inspired more people to take the martial arts than anyone else. I don't deny that far too many people give him a god-like status. But this was not Bruce's doing, this wasn't done by his friends and students, this was done by the general public. Jackie Chan was dead on when he said, "First it was Bruce's punch power was 300 lbs, then 400 lbs, then 500 lbs., now people say Bruce Lee can punch through a wall." Those with a true understanding realize that while Bruce was an exceptional martial artist, he was still a human being.

Now while Royce is an important person in the martial arts, it's his father that was the real pioneer. But even he did not "invent" another style. He modified the JuJitsu he learned, and changed it to more of a Greco-Roman type format. Effective? Yes. Brilliant? Yes. 100% original? Hell no.

I constantly hear articles or discussions about, "who would win Bruce Lee or Royce Gracie". The Royce camp says "Once he got Bruce in a clinch, it'd be game over". Possibly true. The Bruce camp states, "If Bruce was permitted to use eye jabs, he'd have Royce blinded, then pound him into unconsiousness". Also possibly true. The bottom line is we'll never know for sure. But both men are/were exceptional and can be learned from.

Bruce at the time of his death was investigating areas of grappling styles, such as wrestling from India. I like to think, had he lived, he would have met Helio and they would have had an information exchange to the improvement of both methods. Much like he did with Wally Jay, Ed Parker, and other martial artists. Sadly, we'll never know.

[Goku]

I also have to agree with them two... Bruce Lee's was surely the best Martial Artist in my opinion. His determination to get better blows my mind away. You know that story about him beating his master in 4 seconds and getting mad at himself for not being able to do it quicker?

Oh and did u ever see that guy flex? His muscles bulge like wings man... u can almost understand why he jumps so high.

Also, his art is truly an art that can't be limited. JKD has no limitations and accepts all strenghts from all arts into play.

On the other hand, Royce is also a great fighter.... well, great grappler to be exact. All Royce ever does is get someone into a position where they have to give up. That kind of bores me. To me, fighting isn't all about winning. When u fight you have to put u'r body into it... get you're adredianalen (can't spell) rush and so on. Just hugging someone else different ways is not my definition of really fighting. During a fight u may grapple someone a little, but if it's all you do then it's just boring and have no honor in it what so ever.

Just like guns. I hate em. There is no honor in pulling a trigger. That's why swords are honorable. U need skill and determination in order to sword fight someone.

I think I made my point...

[pfsjkd]

the martial art he 'created' is simply a collection of techniques from other arts.

If this is what you think JKD is, then it's obvious you have no real experience with it and don't wanna know.

[Bond]

Hold Up there guys- I will agree that Lee is a popular figure and holds a place of honor in the Martial ArtsCommunity in the20 th century. To place him in a catagory of Fighing skill next to Gracie is another matter entirely. Lee was a dancer, the Hong Kong Cha Cha Champion, an Actor, and also a fighter ,who crosstrained and had good athletic ability.HOWEVER- He could not hold a candle to Royce Gracie in a NHB fight- Thats what Gracies specialised in- no dancing, no acting- just fighting. This eye gouging, one strike death blow , groin grab, scenario that these people use as a cover for lack of skill has been debunked. See Jon Hess- The eye gouge biting champ for details . He is still recovering from the beating Vitor Belfort gave him.
Gracie would have beaten Lee in the same manner as he beat Jason Deluca- a tough kid that fought using Lees style of JKD who was considerably heavier than Lee.. Your deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Im not Idolizing Royce- Just stating fact- Years ago- I recall being scoffed at by my BJJ buddies when I observed that A good Wrestler That knew Judo and could punch would beat a Brazilian Style fighter by stabilising his base , defending subs and pounding away. They were not scoffing when Don Frye did the job on a BJJ champ- Never put all your eggs in one basket..
Gracie over Lee by submission inside of 5 minutes-

[JaredExtreme]

Sweep 'em: Though Lee may have been the reason why you became interest in MA, that doesn't justify his quasi-god like popularity. Heck, that Ralph Macchio guy influenced thousands of kids to start MA through the Karate Kid, does that make him a deadly super-powered martial artist? No.

Arrgh: I am not claiming the Gracies invented jujitsu. And although Helio was the one who redesigned jujitsu into BJJ, Royce was the person who exposed it to the international masses.

Goku: Maybe cuz it's late at night, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. First of all you claim Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist ever. This is ludicrous. Unless you've met every martial artist since the first Indian monks, making such a claim exposes your ignorance. After that, you state that "fighting isn't about winning" and that grappling has no honor. You're a pathetic human being.

Bond: I think it would be hard to predict the winner of Royce/Bruce (I tried to avoid this topic in the thread, but I guess it had to come up eventually). The reason for the difficulty in predicting is that we have NO video of Lee competing in Kung Fu or anything else. It's kind of like saying there was a guy that rose from the dead 2000 years ago, but I don't have any proof and I wasn't there. MAYBE Bruce could have beat Gracie, and MAYBE this guy rose from the dead. Bottom line, we'll never know.

[soho]

Gotu: If your being serious it sounds like you have never worked out with someone with real BJJ skills. Ether that or when you did you got trounced and now are in "that’s not a real art" denial. I would equate BJJ to boxing. A boxer who is much better than you will "hit you like your standing still" it's the same with BJJ. Go with some one who is much better and before you know it you'll be choked out or get your shoulder broken. If you've never experienced a good whooping by a black belt level BJJ guy I highly recommend it. Until you experience it you won't understand, just like with boxing or wrestling. In my opinion sword and knife training is generally for people who don't like to train hard, and don't like to sweat.

Arrgh: BJJ is not in a Greco Roman format an anyway I can think of. I'd say they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

As to the main thread of whether Bruce Lee was really that influential. Sure he was, But at this point his legacy seems to cause more problems than it promotes good training. Arguments about what JKD REALLY IS. Arguments about whether he was the best. People who don’t want to train BJJ or wrestling because "all I need to do is trap and eye jab the guy like Bruce would have.

It all gets pretty silly.

[Arrgh]

"BJJ is not in a Greco Roman format an anyway I can think of. I'd say they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. "

How so? Greco Roman in it's original form (B.C. era)was no holds barred, hand to hand, and viewed getting into a clinch as their prime objective. Sounds a lot like Sambo, BJJ, and most other grappling systems. While Greco Roman was the "more humane" level of Pankration, it still was as brutal as any BJJ contest.

I agree with you completely in that onen't understand BJJ or any other grappling system until you've had a capable practitioner "work you over". But like all other fighting ranges, it has it's limitations. If in 20 years someone starts whipping on BJJ guys, will it be useless? Of course not. I cross train in both JKD Concepts and BJJ and I enjoy working both. Both has provided functional techniques for me.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Just like guns. I hate em. There is no honor in pulling a trigger. That's why swords are honorable. U need skill and determination in order to sword fight someone.

You hate em, therefore there is no honor? No skill? No justification?

You're absolutely right any chucklehead can pull a trigger, I bet even you could.... After all, it doesn't take any skill to use a gun, none whatsoever. All that training that professional marksmen, police, and military get is simply a huge waste of time and resources.

A gun is a tool, just like a knife, a sword, a baseball bat.... The skill and honor, the intent, the effects are all due to the individual who wields the tool.

If all of your posts are as well informed as this comment, I look forward to many wonderful sermons.....

SZ

[Bond]

Lol SZ . That be funny sarcasm.
Jared - There is no "maybe" attached to my opinion. Gracie would have defeated Lee , handily 999 out of 1000 matches- perhaps that eye gouge or death blow would find its mark in one match .
Also, Lee did fight many times in exibitions. He liked western boxing , KickBoxing ,some Judo throws and locks and of course his stock and trade Wing Tsun roots. That was his version of JKD.
Given his weight disadvantage , and inexperience compared to Gracie , is why the fight would have lasted under 5 minutesimo. Lee was an innovator, so he would have modified once he saw Gracie roll a few times . He may have even asked him to co star in a movie like he did Norris.

[soho]

By Greco-Roman I thought you were referring to the style of wrestling where you can not attack the legs (Which has some pretty cool stuff). It just has different rules than a BJJ match. I now see that you were referring to something different. Pankration of old (for all I know) may have been very much like vale tudo and MMA is today.

How do we even know about Greco-Roman Pankration of old? Do any of the ancient Roman history's talk about it? I'll have to look that up.

[Arrgh]

I don't remember what book it was I read it in. But basically, if I remember correctly, it talked about how once the Romans got their hands on Pankration, they turned it into a slaughterfest with weapons. (As seen in Gladiator) Warriors were becoming harder and harder to find, due to deaths and injury, so they went back to the more traditional Pankration style, but a lesser violent version which became the original Grecco-Roman.

Now don't quote me on this. I remember this from quite a while ago, and don't remember if the source was backed by historical research or not. Anyway, the original point I was making is that combative wrestling existed long before the Gracies invented their Ju-Jitsu.

[MrPoopy]

Pic of royce

On the other hand, you have Royce Gracie. He isn't some pretty-boy actor who has some cosmic philosophy, but he UNARGUABLY changed the face of martial arts as we know it today. Yet, how many people know of his name? How many people have Royce Gracie posters on their wall?

Not that it matters, but I have a framed, autographed picture of Royce on top of a file cabinet, next to my computer.