one more grappling as self-defense question.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Many of us have heard grappler's say "I train groundfighting so I don't have to fight on the ground in the street." That sounds good, but do you think someone who's main style of fighting is BJJ or Wrestling will really avoid the ground at all costs in a real self defense situation? Obviously we all cross train in boxing, etc., but if a grappler spends most of his time training how to takedown, get postition, etc. Don't you think that mindset will naturally take over in a stressful situation?
How true is that statement "I train groundfighting so I don't have to go to the ground?" I'm not talking about someone less skilled trying to take YOU down...but more a person who is much more skilled in his hands then you are. Will you take it to the ground then?
Leaving all sport vs. self-defense nonsense to the side, do you think the statement "I train grappling but would never go there in the street" from a grappler, is a fallacy? How realistic is that statement? What would you do as a grappler in a self-defense situation? Punch? If so why not devote more time to boxing then you do to grappling? This is purely a self-defense scenario post. Although many grapplers say they have used just grappling in self-defense situations before and it worked just fine.
(I know I have personally)

The question probably doesn't have a real answer, but thought it might be interesting for discussion. Enjoy.

Ryu

[doubleouch]

I think you are right. As you train you will do. In the heat of the moment you will revert to what you know best and feel most comfortable doing.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have seen that an old coaching maxim is pretty accurate:

"Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanant."

In my opinion, a balanced approach is necessary. We train to move, strike and grapple. Both standing and on the ground. If you train exclusively in one area to the expense of the others, you may be out of balance and unprepared.

Certain arts train for max speed, others for max power, still others for weapons or superior grappling abilities. To me, the approach of 'Jack of all trades, master of none' would seem most benificial for most self defense situations.

Along those lines, sport vs. self-defense.... It's ok to train for sport, as long as you realize what you are truly training for. You can be king shit in your training hall and have an undefeated competition record. If your inflated ego gets you engaged with a serious f**k with a 2 inch blade that you never see and you attempt your best Gracie move to 'submit' him, he may just gut you like a fish.

This, of course leads into the same old argument of 'just bringing a gun' to settle everything. Which is, of course, a waste of debating time.

For each of us, we must find our own way. I like the balanced approach and I like to train sport because it has a lot of benifits as well. I like to incorporate judo and jiu jitsu into my training, weapons and firearms, as well as anything else I can learn and use with sufficient skill.

When I spar I see exactly what you're talking about. You forget all technique, and rely on strength, speed and gross motor movements and have a tendency to want to square up and duke it out.

To be honest with you, I haven't been in a fight since jr. high school. So I don't really know which parts of my training will work or not work in a shit hits the fan situation. But I train in stand up and ground fighting to use in those realms. I don't waste my time in training in high kicks because I can't do them. So why would I train in high kicking to not high kick???? Same as training in groundfighting so I won't have to groundfight Seems like an inefficient use of my limited training time!?

SZ

[MrPoopy]

sparring

In a real fight I think I would go to the ground with someone if I thought I could get dominant position right away. I don't fight well standing.

Another student in my BJJ class teaches JKD concepts and he told me that when they spar, they wear motorcycle helmets and boxing gloves so they can go full force. I've been thinking a lot about doing that with a grappling buddy of mine. Striking to the head only, no kicking, and submissions if possible (I'm not sure if you could do a sleeper hold with someone wearing a helmet). I think it would be a lot of fun to do and would allow me to experience what a real fight would be like on the ground to some extent.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I do it often actually.
It's a great way to train, and a real eye opener.

You don't always have to use motorcycle helmets either, you can do just as well with just good boxing headgear.

Ryu

[CHOKE UK]

Going to ground........

Well RYU, many people may train with different strategies.
But from my experience, if you train in proper ground fighting, and i dont mean wrestling,or strict grappelling, which are one dimentional.
But a proper ground fighting art, like gracie bjj, then you deal with reality. Reality says that 9 aot of 10 fights naturally go to ground, therefore thats where you do most of your training, therefore, why would you try and avoid going to ground. Thats the whole idea of it ! If you opponent is trying to strike you, then take away his chosen option !
When you are having a striking type fight, The bigger and stronger oponent has an advantage,(thats why there are weight divisions in boxing ) also many people are very skilled at striking(boxers etc) and the outcome is very unpredictable, you can be a great puncher, unyet still get caught with a sucker punch ! And the fight will end up grappelling/clinching and on the ground anyway!
But on the ground, the more skilled oponent has a huge advantage.
Anyone can throw a street brawlers punch,with little or no training and be relatively effective, but this is not the case with ground fighting techniques.
So someone who is trained in this area, and not wanting to go there, goes against everything i have been taught.
You are taking away your own advantage.
A recipe for disaster !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TracyKarate]

If you find yourself in a street confrontation, you will never have time to contemplate your method of attack. Rather, you will fall back on the simplest techniques that you have trained the most frequently. This engraves the movements into your mind and makes them second nature.

[Flash]

Re: Going to ground........

Originally posted by CHOKE UK
Reality says that 9 aot of 10 fights naturally go to ground, therefore thats where you do most of your training, therefore, why would you try and avoid going to ground. Thats the whole idea of it !

Actually, reality says that if you are a police officer trying to restrain a struggling suspect, the "fight" will go to the ground 6 out of 10 times.

I am not a police officer.

I can't think of many occasions in which I'd be required to cuff a non-compliant individual (a compliant, sensual female individual is another thing altogether, though - unfortunately, I can only DREAM of such an opportunity).

[defendu.com]

Flash is right

LAPD shows that about 60% of their altercations with suspects go to the ground.

But remember, that "most" citizens have some sort of respect for police officers and the "altercations" can be fairly mild, entailing a form of resisting that is not really a full on fight. So some of the fights "end" when two cops control the suspect up against a wall or patrol car. So a number of the fights never go to the ground.

But, having said that, I think it is still fairly accurate (here in the States) to say that "most" fights go to the ground from the ones I've been in and witnessed.

However, as a Gracie student and someone that works in law enforcement, I would say that now I want virtually ALL of my fights to go to the ground so I can control the suspect and negate his speed, power, movement, etc.

I agree with the other posters ahead of me, when the situation turns ugly and your reptilian brain takes over, your body is going to go with what it knows the best and is most comfortable with.

That's why when our students tell us, "I'm not sure what I would do in a fight", we tell them our stories and the stories of other students who successfully came out of their fight with a smile and said, "It was just like class!".

The secret is to train for the street in a realistic fashion (including role playing and pre-fight confrontation strategies).

[Shrimp]

when the situation turns ugly and your reptilian brain takes over

That's a good way of putting it.

[omgitsroy326]

i grapple a little and i think that grappling is great the only thing is that if the guy is a little skilled then you are screwed. My friend was about to take down this guy and he just kneed him right the the jaw. He didn't even get the chance to grap him. What are you suppose to do in these kind of situation.

[defendu.com]

It's happened to me too.

I grapple a lot and I've been in the situation you described also. I attemped a double leg takedown on a guy right when he decided to front kick me and I took a REAL hard knee shot right to my clavicle. I got the takedown, but I thought I might have fractured my collarbone. (Turned out no fracture).

I've seen a video of Saulo Ribiero getting KO'd by an inadvertant knee to the head when he shot in to take down a kickboxer.

Rorion Gracie would say, "hey, it's a fight". Meaning, you can't expect to be in combat without getting some bumps and bruises.

Remember on the ground things slow down, so they slow down for your opponent also. If you have just a little grappling defense you can go a long way in negating the skills of a guy who has a "little" skill on the ground.

In fact, we have seen that the normal progression of your grappling skills goes something like this:

1. Defense gets better (you can't beat the guy, but he is not beating you either).
2. Superior position (you started getting more mounts, cross sides, but you don't know how to finish the guy -- you know there is SOMETHING you can do from your position).
3. Submission (you can defend yourself, maneuver into a superior position and then submit the opponent).

Keep cross training. I've found that there are more opportunities to tag people with my striking if they are worried about my grappling and vice versa.

I think it's like a football team -- the running game opens up the passing game and the passing game opens up the running game.

[Fighterkid15]

Thats what Judo and Ju-Jitsu is for. You can throw them and if they don't know how to fall it can be harmful or maybe even fatal in some cases. It's also a good thing in self-defense to know steps to a self-defense situation.

1. Verbal control.

2. Physical control.

3. Destruction of the fight.

4. (Which I hope no one comes to.)
Destruction of the opponent.


But just for "grappling" reasons, just use a drop-body throw. In my instructor's view and in mine it is the safest and most useful throw.