shaolin

[Fighter]

True, it would take years of experience to make these styles work. You should do JKD with one of them and youed soon see how useless most of it is.

[nasigoreng]

Training in Thailand/kung fu-the legend continues

you can find Thai boxing camps online at www.muaythai.com.

The Lonely Planet Guidebook lists a few places too.

BAck to Kung-Fu:

Ok, somehow I feel responsible for this "it takes 30 years to use kung fu" sentiment. It's not MY statement. That's what the guy who went to the temple told me. I'm sure he was exaggerating though.

I don't really know how the shaolin train; do they spar?All I've seen is the demonstration material: the forms.

How do you beome a strong warrior by doing forms all day?

The kung-fu guys brought their forms and stances into the Thai boxing ring and got KO'd. btw Congratulations kung fu San Shou ! It's only taken you guys 400 years to change your methodoloy to compete with and defeat Thai boxers.

I think Kung Fu DOES take LONGER to learn as far as reaching an EFFECTIVE SKILL LEVEL because the instructors want the students to understand the culture and philosophy as well so they can preserve the integrity of their lineage. One instructor I interviewed said only ADVANCED students were allowed to spar.

I mean, The instructors had to learn all the forms and 40 different weapons so why should these lazy westerners have it so easy? It doesn't matter that I'm not going to have access to a broadsword if I get in a street altercation.

Is this just another example of western consumer culture like:
lose 10 lbs in 2 days?-

"I want to be an unbeatable kung fu master streetfighter badass in 4weeks"

[MinisterofDeath]

you shouldn't make blanket statements like that about gung fu. There are over 1500-2000 styles. From what I've seen they do spar at shaolin. Last time I saw sparring at shaolin they had little kids going at it. It was pretty cool

[Guest]

The Shaolin Temple is now a money making exercise that uses Kung Fu to fill the proverbial rice bowl. Everyone thinks of that series form the 1970s were David Carradine went in an orphan and came out a Philosophical Superman.

Don't fall for it. Just because they pretend to be Monks it doesn't mean that they really are.

As far as "instructors had to learn all the forms and 40 different weapons so why should these lazy westerners have it so easy?" well, what is the point of learning a fighting art that has attributes that slow your progress down?

I know full well that some religeons use the martial arts as a means of conditioning their followers. As such, the actual fighting prowess is not that relevant. But you can't have it both ways. You can't fiddle about with inefficient training methods for the philosophy of it, but then keep pretending that you are becoming efficient at fighting as well.

There were world renowned challenges to Thai Boxing in the 1970s from Kung Fu "masters". They waved their hands round mysteriously and then got their heads kicked in. They complained that the gloves impeded them. The fights were fought again, and the Kung Fu guys didn't have to wear the gloves. Guess what, they got their butts kicked again.

Think of any physical activity. For an example lets take soccer. Could you train in a robotic and mysterious style for soccer, not even using a ball? Yes you could. But don't expect to have a clue in a real match.

[aseepish]

Hey! Are you makin fun of my soccer kata??

This brings up an important point about styles and training. Paul Vunak likes to give an example by comparing himself to top NBA players. He's an avid basketball player and he knows the same techniques as they do, but could he even hold his own against any of them in a one-on-one match? Of course not. The chief reason for this is attributes - characteristics such as speed, strength, endurance, co-ordination, and so on. It's how you train these attributes that's important, not the individual techniques that are driven by them.

Muay Thai, boxing, and JKD for that matter, are effective because of their training methods. They will build up your attributes faster and more efficiently than most traditional styles. Boxing is a sport, the fighters are protected by rules. But once you have the attributes that enable you to throw a jab that is "felt rather than seen," you can open your hand and have a killer eye jab.

Also remember that in the PRC, shaolin = wu shu. Fighting styles that were sanitized by the government so they wouldn't be much of a threat. You would have better luck finding authentic "kung fu" in Hong Kong or Taiwan.

If you're interested I can recommend a great Wing Chun/Muay Thai instructor in Singapore.

-T

[MinisterofDeath]

I wouldn't say all shaolin KF is now modern wushu. The secular diciples union is still a great place to learn authentic shaolin. I know some people that are in contact with some of the monks. E-mail me or PM me if you want more info

[GrdStorm]

Kung Fu has gone to shit.

I think that the majority of serious Kung Fu practitioners in CHINA and TAIWAN can kick ass but the idiots that go public with their style and get their asses kicked really give Kung Fu a bad name.

Oh yeah Wushu looks kool BUT from my understanding it was modernized to please crowds, not for fighting.

Also most MA's are derived from Chinese Kung Fu so give it a lil more respect. (This is argueable but most smart people know the truth)


Q. Back in the day, Chinese MA's used to fight each other to see which style was superior... I don't think they do that today. Doesn't that mean the evolution of CMAs has slowed down a bit? Just my opinion.

When Kung Fu fought Muay Thai, were both wearing gloves or just the Thai guys?

**Ring competition/NHB still can't be compared to real street fight situations.** - Unless your thrown into a back alley with no way out while people watch from the roof tops

[Qkfx]

correct

Bri Thai is correct yet again. He has been setting the record straight on alot of these threads where others still press the useless arts.

[MinisterofDeath]

useless? blah

[Guest]

"When Kung Fu fought Muay Thai, were both wearing gloves or just the Thai guys?"

In the first fights all combatants wore gloves. After complaints from the Kung Fu practitioners they held a second set of fights in which only the Thai Boxers wore gloves.

Part of the problem with more traditional arts is that they suffer from their own "mystique". They have somany silly tales of super human achievements (all massivley exaggerated, or downright lies) that they think their arm waving is the way to go.

Again, think of other physical past times. Do the best American Football players, Tennis players, Soccer Players etc. etc. get where they are by performing robotic Kata, meditating, and practising against thin air? No, and they only have tales of prowess that are independantly verifiable.

The martial arts still have some naive people who can be easily fooled by charlatans.

[Fighter]

Bri Thai is right yet again.

GrdStorm is correct to. Alot of Kung Fu as gone to crap. There techniques were effective then....But not now. As others have said go with a progressive system not a traditional system.

[Art of Soccer]

Think of any physical activity. For an example lets take soccer. Could you train in a robotic and mysterious style for soccer, not even using a ball? Yes you could. But don't expect to have a clue in a real match.

Interesting... depends.

A small toddler able to walk was standing in front of me... without giving any verbal instructions I proceeded to hold my leg with my hands and move my leg in the manner I intended to kick, then removed my hands and kicked again. The toddler copied my kick.
I added the ball in front of me repeating the previous steps, I kicked the ball to the toddler. The Toddler picked up the ball... I held my leg and kicked again repeating my steps, still no verbal instructions. The toddler dropped the ball and copied my movement kicking the ball to me.

You can teach how to kick without a subject infront of you. But the toddler was using my experience for himself. I had already used the ball so my movements were tested and effective... they toddler would only have part of the lesson, had I not introduced the ball. If you simply remove the ball then as more gennerations pass the kick on, it looses it's effectiveness.

It becomes a copy of a copy of a copy.

I honestly think that once you become accustomed to the ball, you feel it even when it's not there, making practice without the ball effective... you understand your leg, gravity, friction, momentum... but you understand it visually, physically. They are cues... those cues can be altered and adjusted in your mind to make up new probabilites. It's all mathmatics, but it's not conciously trying to calculate everything using written values and variable.
Once you measure the square... you can draw the same square somewhere else because you know its measurements, it's not tied down to it's physical existance anymore.

I hope that came across well enough to understand.

[Sagacious Lu]

I just took the time to read this thread and now I want the precious minutes of my life back that I wasted on this nonsense

[Rickster]

hi

well i was actually thinking of joining, there is an temple in china wich is teaching shaolin kung fu to foreigners. the classes are tought 24/7 and the teachers are shaolin masters just like tha ones you described, with shaved head and everything.

well this training costs about 4000-5000 us dollars a year.
that includes housing and food, clothing, training.

don't tell me that this doesen't seem cool and intresting :-)

i was planning to go for a couple of yaers.

Your about to be suckered like those othere poor souls