Eye Pokes

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have a serious question:

How many people on this forum have ever actually attacked someones eyes? And to what degree?


My Kenpo training partner has been trained to use eye strikes in normal (black belt) self-defense responses. I am not exactly sure when and where these fit into the curriculum so I won't even venture a guess.


In my training, I have recently taken the ikkyu test in my dojo. None of our techniques (to this level) involve direct targeting of the eyes. The eyes are an option that is discussed to use when escaping a choke that is set in or other life threatening situations, but I have been trained to seek other options first (this is situational of course).

What are your thoughts?

Spanky

[Guest]

I have never used it, but do know of a colleague who used to se a single (relatively gentle) eye poke to set someone up for a big punch in the jaw.

I think that this is potentially one of the few really nasty techniques that nullify so much of our training. I mean come on, how much Boxing or Grappling will work against someone so derenged that he is prepared to blind you (or strike your throat in an attempt to kill you, or bite your throat etc.).

The positions we become used to in more "civilised" training expose us to techniques such as this.

I know that this is contencious but, if we had GENUINE No Rules competitions, I think you would find that the Grapplers may not dominate to anything like the same exent that they have in the past.

I'm not necessarily advocating the "eye poke", but I think we should be realistic in an assessment of our training for self defence purposes.

[aseepish]

In PFS we were taught to "gently rake" the eyes with the thumbs from the neck clinch position (muay thai plum), to set up a headbutt, knee, or elbow strike.

In Kenpo (I got as far as purple belt before the school closed and I switched over to JKD) we did eye strikes from about 6 months in.

In my Wing Chun system we learn biu jee (finger strikes)s to the eyes from pretty much day one.

That said, I've never used any of this stuff, so I have no idea if or when it's going to pop out in a real situation.

T.

[Ice Phoenix]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
I think that this is potentially one of the few really nasty techniques that nullify so much of our training. I mean come on, how much Boxing or Grappling will work against someone so derenged that he is prepared to blind you (or strike your throat in an attempt to kill you, or bite your throat etc.).

The positions we become used to in more "civilised" training expose us to techniques such as this.
I'm not necessarily advocating the "eye poke", but I think we should be realistic in an assessment of our training for self defence purposes.

Of course eye gouges/pokes and biting are a potential problem for any fighter, whether skilled or unskilled, but you have to remember that most fights are not under 'survival' circumstances, and therefore these tactics aren't often going to be used. I've seen plenty of fights in my life and only one of them involved one guy poking at another guys eyes who was laying, not mounted, on top of him to get him off. Both were drunk and unskilled, and had the guy on top been a grappler, the poking wouldn't have occured.

The fact is any decent stand-up or grappling training is going to significantly reduce your chances of being defeated, whether via nasty techniques or any other technique! As the striker you'll be better able to inflict damage at a distance and as the grappler your ability to control the opponents body and get better position will give you advantage!

Supposing you tested out these points, imagine arranging to fight a Pro boxer of your own weight in a fight excluding any grappling, but allowing ANY strikes whatsoever, and testing if the boxers abilities are now nullified! Chances are you'll still get knocked on your ass! The same principle applies to grappling!

Now imagine challenging Rickson Gracie to a fight excluding stand-up striking of any sort, though anything goes during grappling! Do you think he'd give you the opportunity to bite his neck or gouge at his eyes or throat knowing the rules? Just as he'd behave in a street-fight, chances are he'll mount you and beat you shitless, or back-mount you and elbow your brainstem, or choke you silly!

Just some food for thought!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Re: Eye Pokes

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I have a serious question:

How many people on this forum have ever actually attacked someones eyes? And to what degree?


My Kenpo training partner has been trained to use eye strikes in normal (black belt) self-defense responses. I am not exactly sure when and where these fit into the curriculum so I won't even venture a guess.


In my training, I have recently taken the ikkyu test in my dojo. None of our techniques (to this level) involve direct targeting of the eyes. The eyes are an option that is discussed to use when escaping a choke that is set in or other life threatening situations, but I have been trained to seek other options first (this is situational of course).

What are your thoughts?

Spanky

I have attacked someone's eyes in a real fight before.
This was a fight a long time ago in high school though. I was a sophomore, and it was before I knew anything about grappling.
Basically I got into a fight with a very large kid. I knocked him down a small flight of stairs, and when I turned to walk away, he tackled me from behind. He got on top of me, and I pressed my fingers into his eye sockets to get him off. (I did not press as hard as I could because I didn't want to blind him...) well in reality this "pressure" pissed him off, and he began to wail on me from on top. I took about 5 or 6 big blows to the head, then he got off of me in pain. He was holding his face to check damage of his eyes, and I ran in to fight him again, but this time the whole thing was broken up.

Not my finest moment. But it was a long time ago, and it did get pretty serious. This is what it taught me though. In a real situation, if you attack the eyes with anything less then 110% commitment, you're more then likely going to piss your assailant off.

If you go for the eyes in a fight, you've turned it into a VERY serious fight. Just remember that.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I've also bitten people in real fights before too
But that's a story for another time

Ryu

[Brokenmace]

In all seriousness, if you aren't prepared to kill someone you probably shouldn't fight, because you may kill them anyway. Or they may kill you. They don't have to want to. I live near a club where the owner was killed by a patron who was kicked out. All the guy did was punch him once in the face, and the owner fell on concrete, breaking his skull. He died instantly.

Ryu's lesson is important for all of us, actually. If you go to the eyes, your intent should be to blind and maim. If not, don't bother. The price is too high, both emotionally and financially.

The punishment should fit the crime. Therefore, if you fight you may kill. To fight is to risk life. Is your life at risk before you fight? If the answer is yes, commit with all your will and might and kill the bastard. Otherwise walk away.

After all, a truly viscious attack on the eyes probably leaves one with less than pleasant memories, and possibly some pyschological scars; care to try that deep, scouring thumb dig to the sockets without sufficient cause? I don't want eyeball juice flowing over my hands for nothing . . .

Respect.

[Guest]

Ice - I think you may have missed my point.

The way you train is the way you react. The more rules in your art, the more you expose yourself to someone fighting outside those rules.

Now I wouldn't fancy my chances against Rickson Gracie at all, but he at the top of the tree isn't he? But there are plenty of people who could whip me in a grappling match, or a Tai math or whatever. But I believe I would win many of them in a real fight.

The way you train is the way you react. For example, if you're going to get me in the guard I am going to punch your genitals about 10-20 times none stop.

I'm not trying to potray myself as some kind of really tough person either. It is just common sense. Yes, the training in a conventional Martial Art will make you a far better fighter, but you must always be aware that the rules your art follows can go against you when there are no rules.

[JaredExtreme]

Though I am pretty much a BJJ/judo grappler now, if I was ever in a real streetfight where my life is on the line, I wouldn't be looking for a flying armbar or umaplata.

The one thing I learned from McDojo Karate was to attack three vulnerable targets (though i can't say I agree with the techniques). These being:

1.Groin
2.Throat
3.Eyes

If I somehow get in a clinch with some deranged meth-psycho, I'm going for his eyes or a clean punch to his throat.

As was previously mention, most fights don't escalate to this level. However, I was chatting with a guy I roll with that also does some wing-chung. And he told me a story about an incident he had at a bar. To make a long story short this is what happened:

My buddy starts talking to a chick at the bar and this drunk guy comes up and tells him to move out of the seat because he wants to start hitting on this chick. My buddy says no. The drunk guy continues being rude and starts making a scene. He then whips out a pretty big knife from under his jacket and comes at my friend (who has stood up by this time). All my friend does is a simple front kick right to the under-side of this guy's groin.

Fight's over.

So yeah, train all the BJJ and wrestling you want to, but when your life is on the line you better be ready to fight dirty.

[Szczepankiewicz]

The way you train is the way you react

True. True.


My old football coach had a saying: "Practice makes permanent."


It's good to know how to strike the eyes, however I think that a few things will happen:

1) The situation will end or escalate extremely quickly.
2) The legal ramifications are going to be ugly.
3) The psychological damage could be hard to deal with.
4) It may be the only thing that saves your butt.

Interesting topic....

SZ

[ceasarx]

I have put my thumbs into a persons eyes when I was attacked a long time ago. It ended the conflict within seconds . I didnt do any permanent damage but I got my point across. My Instructor at the time told me if you are attacked dont waste time hit them in the areas that will take them out. The eyes the throat ext...
It has never failed to work and I will still use that advice if I was attacked today. Morales dont matter in war

[crazyjoe380]

I used eye pokes..

he he he... but they called me a bitch!! can you believe that?!

i poked his eye and you know he said.. "time out".. "hold on" ..
i just about to kick him in the head when he was kneeling and his friend was like "alright homie that's it.. your a bitch why you gotta poke the eyes?"

lol i was like wtf???

[Szczepankiewicz]

Joe, you are a bitch. Tracey Karate's bitch.

But that's besides the point... I mean, how did THEY know?


They think a fight has rules? You should have punted the guy's head while he was down.

[Guest]

Heres a good piece of advice.....

Look at the rules of whatever combat sport you are into. Get to the part where it tells you the areas you are NOT allowed to strike. Then train how to strike those for a real fight.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Just to make a point here......
Going for eyes, groin, throat, etc. is all well and good.....but you need to train the actual physicality of a fight. Therefore you have to box, wrestle, grapple, etc. Put some headgear and gloves on and go for it. Punch, kick, clinch, grapple, and groundpound. That kind of training gives you the understanding of the body under stress of a real fight.
Therefore, if you want to "poke the eyes" in the clinch, you can do so without getting thrown on your head.

but I'm probably preaching to the choir here......

Ryu