Military Hand to Hand Fighting.

[Brokenmace]

I don't doubt you at all. I'm saying what is actually taught, not what is written in the manual.

A lot of things in the manuals (old and new) aren't actively taught to everyone in the Army. For instance, the medical corps doesn't get intense demolition training, despite the fact that the manuals I've seen teach improvised explosives.

There are priorities, after all . . .

But like I said, anyone has the option to learn a lot. As long as you don't mind getting smacked around by a Srgnt. Hamhock.

[BlackMaskX]

Bri Thai,

Thanks for your excellent info on military combat, I was curious about military fighting styles. Could you explain a little more about Applegate's WWII system?

Brokenmace,

How does special ops H2H training differ technique-wise from basic H2H? What kind of H2H techniques do special ops learn, and what MAs are they derived from?

[Brokenmace]

I don't know a whole lot about Rex Applegate the man, but I've seen examples of his system, and it looks pretty effective. It is old (as far as modern systems are concerned), and is based on Greco/Roman Wrestling, Catch-as-Catch-Can, boxing, small elements of Judo and Karate (I believe), and what I can only describe as brute street stuff (that helped, right?).

Many of its elements are primarily defensive, recognizing the fact that most h2h situations on the battlefield are the result of surprise attacks and loss of weaponry.

The counter attacks are viscious, and seem to be of the "crush the windpipe or balls and leave" variety, with a few submission/joint breaks thrown in. They also focus on escapes.

I'm particularly attracted to its defenses against a standing opponent while you are on the ground.

This is not by any means a complete critique of the system. It is my knowledge from seeing some of my military friends mess around, websites, and books. I've never learned the system myself.

To answer your other question, the difference in h2h between us and specops is a matter of goals and tactics.

The specops guys train for a variety of eventualities, but most of their h2h is geared toward "guard" liquidation. In other words, you can't use a gun because of the noise, so you sneak up behind someone and knife them or garrote them. Failing that, you break their neck with your bare hands.

If that goes haywire, or they run out of ammo but have a chance to escape, they go with the knife and a stealthy getaway (if they can). Failing that they usually revert to Thai boxing for kicks, and JKD-derived hand techniques (not trapping, though). They are fond of bil-jees (finger jabs to eyes or throat), knife hand to throat, and crashing into the clinch with knees and elbows, followed by hard throws and stomps. They (SEALs) do not seem to prefer to go to the ground, and I don't know if they train that or not.

Most specops have received a modicum of training/seminars for: Bando, BJJ, MMA, JKD (and derivatives), and Thai Boxing. The largest mixture comes from BJJ, Thai, and JKD, it seems. I got this info from articles and books (mostly MA mag articles).

A lot of this info comes from trawling the Net and various books. I do know a guy who knows a SEAL, but I haven't known him long enough to ask anything of him. This I plan to do later.

[yungsmoke]

one of my friends a ranger an he showed me some grapple moves when he came an visit, an it just looked like the moves in ufc like them breaking the arms in the joints an stuff

[robertlee]

As the different options of better improveing the fighting tatics for the newer military are improved on then they will change . What is used on the streets today is more developed then 40 years a.go BJJ and the ufc came to light in america a short time ago The average thai fighter retires from the ring at an early age . What is new now and seems to work the person runs to learn. the military studies it and borrows from it what they need for now today . Just as the mixed fighters are doing. Except they need the tools to kill or silence for war . Four to five hand tools three to five kicks four to five grappling manuvers. Will make for a good m.m.a .or street fighter. But we all try to learn more. When less is better . Do in the m/a came as the needs changed prior to that jutsu, was the path in training . DO to preserve Jutsu to learn more to fight and defend. So as you see the past is coming back in the manner some want to train. Train to fight is the choice then those are the skills that are the goal . The needs changed as the times did the samari, karate jutsu, shorinji kenpo ect. practitioners Tools were not needed as they were before so to preserve and keep a path of devlopment So what was being learned could be still a useful path and saved for future use and discovery. the mixing of fighting tools has gone on for centurys styles developed from there.Twenty more years and there will be other aspects to confront in awareness. the exposure brought by other ways to use the same tools of the past or modified manuvers gives us that edge for the now and the tommrow. the fighter grows old the knowledge stay alive

[Brokenmace]

Things change. That is why I hate the enslavement to tradition and the sensationalism of the present.

Everything has its place, its reason for being. If a technique, principle, or philosophy is matched with its reason and place, there is no competition between old and new. There is no "right" and "wrong."

That is why a BJJ practitioner would get his ass kicked on the battlefield, as would a Thai boxer. A Jun Fan practitioner might fair better, but he would still probably lose in the end. Why?

Think about what each of these is designed for: BJJ is best at one on one, rolling in the street, which on a battlefield is suicide (even in stealth situations); Thai boxing, while formidable, is a ring sport that doesn't take into consideration quick kills and the rush of battles; Jun Fan incorporates quick kills, and so might work in some instances, but it is not really suited for group combat or silent kills.

To be effective, a h2h system for military use must have quick kill, group oriented, multiple attacker, and stealth attributes as priorities. Almost none of the systems practiced by us have all of these qualities in common usage.

That is why the Armed Forces mix and match and add their own stuff.

Pop quiz: Can anyone tell me why Marine combat manuals say it is a bad idea to punch? And what do they suggest you do instead? What is the one usage of knuckles they suggest in addition?

[Edge]

mixed martial arts & bjj forum

Brokem mace, Bri Thai, Robert Lee,
Much respect to you all. Bri, I was not Trying to add credibility to any particular style. I mentioned that specwar teams Used MT techniques. Robert Lee you have valid points things do change the miltary changes their h2h techniques with the times. Brokemace I'll answer your quiz #1 broken fingers can occur when punching. #2 use palm heel if must strike with hand broken fingers cain't pull triggers or hold knives. Knuckle punch to throat , knuckles of fingers extended. I did not read marine corps manual past or present. (not sure if these are the answers in the manual your reading from,but they are common sense to me). My father was in Marine Corps Recon during U.S./Viet Nam "Police Action" (war) & he taught me what he knew personally before he enlisted & what he learned while he was in plus what he continued training in afterwards. We grew together in some aspects of our training. please post the quiz answers.
I am not bound by styles/systems, I simply appreciate the effective techniques of the limited systems/styles I've trained in.
P.S. brokenmace, I to heard that the USMC recently developed their own style. ---Edge---

[Edge]

military h2h

Broken mace, I see you did some good research.
Peace, ---Edge---

[Guest]

Rex Applegate was one of the main guys, as was W.E. Fairbairn. They looked at martial arts during WW2 and tried to strip away all the inneffective techniques, as well as the unessentials. What was left was a very small syllabus of real nasty stuff, and that what they trained.

The problem learning a self protection system such as this isn't just how to ensure you come out of a fight alive. It is how to deal with the legal fall out when you blast the guy into the next world........

[Brokenmace]

Edge,

Good job, mostly. But I'll wait and see if another one or two folks want a crack at it before I post the answers.

Bri Thai,

Thanks for the Rex Applegate stuff. And all of us should consider the legal fallout of our actions. After all, just because our arts may or may not focus on quick kill stuff doesn't mean it won't happen. The world is a hard place (you know: concrete, bowling balls, pool tables, TVs, wombats, llamas )

[mushinmaster]

CQC sucked ass!!!!!!

IMHO

[MinisterofDeath]

USMC MA's

the new USMC program is MCMAP or Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. There was an article about in Inside Kung Fu I think. And it is no longer optional for Marines, it's required even though they aren't part of SOCOM. My cousin is taking the instructors course. He says much of it BJJ with some striking, throwing etc. When he first started the program he said it would be 8 hours a day everyday for 2 or 3 months. I think thats for the asst. instructor or some shiznit.
Anywho, I'm out.

[Brokenmace]

Answer to pop quiz:

CQC manuals state that unprotected knuckles are likely to be broken or injured on buckles, knives, helmets and other gear.

Open palms are recommended instead, specifically the palm heel strike.

The only knuckled attack advised is the back fist in all its manifestations. Ligament damage and broken bones are less likely with this strike.


mushinmaster,

Which CQC??? Anyway, any combat involving the natural weapons or short range weapons (clubs, knives etc.) is CQC. WTF?

So your training was pointless? Now I know why your site has needed updating for so long . . .

Respect.

[robertlee]

War is a sad thing or the taking of a life but may be nessary in battle or tactical support missions. This is justified The training pays off by liveing thru this time . But on the streets just a fight can end up a legal matter. Going beyond what is needed can get you put in prison Right or wrong this happens. Some states have enacted laws where it is now easier to defend one self in court on the matter of self protection > If you can show the threat was putting you in a position you were in fear of your life or grave bodly harm then its legal to have to take a life . Check with your state laws on this matter . What you have trained to do if it is kept useful as a tool in training will be avalible when needed . So though some angles of defence are more dangerous to use do way in at end a wise person will understand the time to employee the use. To be ready one must train to develop that instinct. or you wont use it when you must then you are the one that is now gone. Some people call it the killer instinct be able to do what one has to do But in todays world a bullet is the means most use to the end not the kill tatics of hand to hand training But the more we learn brings us better exposer to what is and what is not that remains the reason

[crazyjoe380]

i was right!!