What are your views on TKD?

[mike]

Ryan,

I think the problem lies with the fact that there are a lot of stupid people, and that most of the stupid people in the MA study TKD or Karate. I feel the important thing when discussing these arts is that there is a reason for there existence. In times past peoples lives depended on being able to fight, there were no hospitals or any of that and a broken bone ment you were disfigured for life. With that in mind i feel there is some validity to Karate and TKD, I cannot see them surviving all this time without having some value. I also think that the McDojo epidemic in America and other places is why you see so many poorly trained tkd and karate folks running the streets yelling HI-YAH! at each other.

Punk000,

I too have never seen a thai boxer lose to a TKD person, but to be honest with you where the hell are you gonna find a TKD person that dumb? I have visited TKD schools and watched them train, and when I went back to my school and compared the two the difference is obvious. If TKD people trained as hard as MT people they might stand a better chance.


and of course there are plenty of techniques in ALL arts that I wouldnt try to pull off in a "real" fight, I would resort to what I know and so would most people. But I would like to point out that I and many others have no problem throwing Thai kicks at the head region, and I would do it in a fight if I got the chance.

wow this is long winded thanks for reading all this crap

thank,

mike

[ryanhall]

mike,
i think i understand your position a lot better now. as far as value, many arts did at some time have vaule (tkd dropped out of the sky), but failed to change with the times and became useless (read most kinds of kung fu/karate). here's an example of adaptation that arts USED to have. northern styles of kung fu were used on open, grassy plains and are identified by their high and jumping kicks--a product of the environment in which they were founded. southern styles have low stances and rapid hand movements--they were founded in more urban settings. this was adaptation. use what works for where you live. do you wear a gi to work every day? how about loose-fitting pants? see what i'm getting at? does your art address the changing times, or does it pretend you are living in southeast asia centuries ago? i have never had to kick someone off a horse before. you?

about being able to kick someone in the head: it is NOT suitable for real combat. you see this in combat sports that are standup only, or allow you to fight for a prolonged period of time. i wouldn't want to get hit in the head with a thai kick (it would probably ko me), but i bet you couldn't pull it off on me early in a sparring match. in the ufc, you don't see people high kicking at the gracies, at least not early on. that's because they will shoot and drop you. however, in a kickboxing match, it's a viable move--because of no grappling--but kickboxers know that you don't throw high kicks right away (usually).

in reality it's worse. you could lose your footing, someone could tackle you, you could miss and get pounded, someone could trip you, etc. not to mention, you will almost never find youself with the clearance to throw a head kick, even if you wanted to. most fights start with the shit flinging contest beforehand--in cqc or punching range. i hope you see where i'm going. stick to high percentage, high possibility of k.o. moves that still allow you to protect yourself well enough. at least that's what i do.

i'll get off my soap box
sorry about the long post.

ryan

[punk000]

nice post..... whats dim mak?

[ryanhall]

dim mak is a term thrown around by lots of martial artists that like to pretend they are superheroes. it basically means pressure point or vital point. the idea is that you can drop someone with an accurate strike using minimal power by hitting a a few points in succession that opens up the ko. it's a lot of bs that george dillman likes to preach about. it is absolute GARBAGE. the human body is a powerful machine, and it does not collapse with the touch of a hand. delivering an accurate strike is tough enough in a sparring match/ring fight. see how often boxers miss each other's heads? try hitting a spot the size of a dime on a nonvital target like an arm. not gonna happen. ever. my favorite pressure point: the head/jaw/nose/neck. those are real targets.

"but i've seen him ko his students with a pressure point"
firstoff, they are standing dead still and letting him hit them--never gonna happen in real life. second, assuming they are not just acting (unlikely), they believe he will ko them. i read a post by darren laur a while back about exposing sleight of hand in the martial arts. basically, his expalanation was this: if you believe someone will do something to you, they can do it. for example, if you saw six people get flicked on the forehead and "knocked out" by a some 10th degree b.b., there's a fair chance that you would believe he could do the same to you. when it was your turn, unless you went up with an attitude of "this is bs and it's not gonna work on me," you just might fall over. in essence, you do it to yourself. if someone just flicked you on the forehead without saying they could ko you and you believeing it, you would laugh it off and smack them upside the head for being dumb.

i've said it before and i'll say it again: in a fight, your mentality determines your success. don't think you're gonna win, know it. if this dim mak stuff was for real, we'd have pro athletes dropping dead all the time.

sorry about the long post. hope i answered your question

ryan

[mike]

Ryan,

Im in almost total agreement with you. I agree that Karate and TKD along with a variety of traditional MA are out of touch with reality. Its true you and I are not farmers defending our homesteads/huts/insert clever comparison here, BUT i do think that practicing inferior kicking and punching is better than not practicing at all. I feel that just getting off your ass and to the classroom is better than watching televison. and granted it may not make you a match for mike tyson, I dont think it can hurt you per se, anymore than not being trained and resisting a mugger, picking a fight with your boss, getting involved in a bar fight, etc. And finally I mostly agree with your assesment of high kicking, in some situations it may not be the best course of action, but i feel it has a place.

thanks,


Mike

[ryanhall]

good post mike. valid points

[H@pkid0ist]

ryanhall,
Carefull there about the judgement on Hapkido. Yes we stand there and practice defenses from a grab, but thats only to learn the technique and master it. Later you perform the technique while the person is in the midsts of grabbing you. As well all these hand techniques are also punch defenses. Every grab defense that I have learned and mastered from someone holding on to my body somewhere I also learn to do from a strike, a walk by, on the ground. You learn them from a basic position and them lern to do them from various other strikes. As well we have a multitude of striking techniques from kicking, kneeing, punching, elbows, backfists, whatever. On top of that we throw, break, utilize pressure and pain points. We do anything pretty much anyone else does and in many cases more. I you truly have doupts then you are more than welcomed to come and visit my teachers dojang in hampton Va. 52 Mercury Blvd. Maybe we can sway you and at the least give you a new appreciation for HKD. Or maybe if at all possible you could join the family. Either way you would be welcome as a friend at any time.
Also, as far as the Muai Thai issue. We have had profesional fighters, MT included come to our school to sign up and train. My teacher is very reputable and realistic in his training.

[H@pkid0ist]

Originally posted by ryanhall
dim mak is a term thrown around by lots of martial artists that like to pretend they are superheroes. it basically means pressure point or vital point. the idea is that you can drop someone with an accurate strike using minimal power by hitting a a few points in succession that opens up the ko.

Dim Mak is translated as Death Touch.
It is the system in which you kill and cripple assailants through multiple or single strikes to particular key ares on a person. My teacher is a Grandmaster and he himself snickers any time someone will bring the topic up. Pressure point control and manipulation are one thing. Death Touch, Well. I've been at this game for almost 23 years a 8 diferent systems and no one to date has convinced me of it. Till then it is another Hype and marketing ploy for Martial Buisnessmen.

[ryanhall]

hkdist,
i look forward to visiting your school. it'll be interesting to see hapkido done right.

[magic]

Sorry to back track a little . . .

Ryan,

I take your point about traditional MA , and also the point about once you change things do you still have a TKD, Karate etc. This could be a whole other thread . . .

Where I train, they teach WTF TKD. However, apart from forms, all other techniques are adapted based on a "what works best" principle eg
1. We use a boxing stance, guard and boxing hand techniques for sparring.
2. We learn and use MT leg checking
3. We cross-train (as a club) in BJJ grappling
4. We have started to use (admittedly only this year) a more reality-based self defence system (lots of yelling, screaming, slapping etc)

IMHO any MA that does not change and adapt is a historical oddity. This does not mean you have throw everything away, but like you say, some of the stuff that traditional MA's practise is garbage.

Cheers

Magic

[jee t]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by magic
4. We have started to use (admittedly only this year) a more reality-based self defence system (lots of yelling, screaming, slapping etc)


oh shiet......that was great

[magic]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by magic
4. We have started to use (admittedly only this year) a more reality-based self defence system (lots of yelling, screaming, slapping etc)


oh shiet......that was great[END QUOTE]

. . . the vast majority of people at my school are not "street bangers" and have had no experience of being put under real pressure in a self-defence situation. So the "lots of yelling, screaming, slapping etc" helps to force them to react under pressure. Many of these people have never been subject to a real "in your face" verbal attack let alone a real physical attack. Perth, Western Australia is not exactly New York or LA . . .

Many will opt out of this type of training, but others will start to test themselves further. Remember, not everyone wants to be a hardcore urban counter-terrorist soldier . . .

Magic

[Grape_Ape]

Good point Magic. I don't practice martial arts for self defense. I've never been in a fight and don't plan to be. At 6'2" 220 most people avoid confrontation with me. I practice for the experience. It's one of most enjoyable forms of exercise for the body and mind that I have found. The self defense aspect is just icing.

[Steelsings16]

Thanks for your help! I think I'm going to keep taking TKD until I can find something else just so I can stay in shape (what little shape I'm in).

Testing for my orange belt on Monday!! Wish me luck!

[ryanhall]

steelsings,
just wondering, how long have you been doing your tkd for?