Jujitsu vs. Bujinkan Taijutsu/ninjutsu

[chris davis 200]

chris may have used tjj in the past, but i can tell you to a near certainty that he didn't try to wrist lock his assailant. please correct me if i'm wrong.

No argument wanted but you are! i have used Wrist locks and twists to Great GREAT effect, you will be extremely shocked at how effective they are! The pain received from them even when pumped on adrenalin is incredible. When in a wrist lock on 2 ocassions people have tried to punch me - i saw the wild swing coming a mile off and applied the lock further - on both occasions the person raised onto their tip toes, screwed up their face and the punch did not come through. Just personal experience with determined attackers - Neither were drunk - it may not work for everyone.

for all you tkd fans (or detractors) out there, here's a story: a couple years back, an olympic tkd .........

I have heard of this too and a story of a Karate European heavyweight champion who got kicked in by 2 thugs because he was used to tournament fighting! Both of which i believe are TRUE!

the idea was that a lot of trad martial arts give you some poor concepts that can definitely hinder you in a real life situation--round house kicking to the head, etc. (i don't want to list). the point was that the tkd guy, though very skilled in his art, was definitely not up to the task of defending himself realistically--a product of unrealistic training

traditional TKD and Karate are a touch different to Traditional JJ - please dont group all traditional MA's in the same group.

We had a 'modern' JJ instructor come to our club recently - he had practiced 'modern' JJ and self defence for 15 years and Wado Ryu Karate (modern school) for 10. After his first lesson training with the high grades he said to me personally ' Fair play, i dont know a thing - i thought the modern approach would be best but it just lacks vital content, I am supprised!' (thats about the jist of it). This guy is a very humble and nice guy and did not mind admitting this to me - He now trains regularly at our school. You dont have to believe me - i cannot prove this online!

Peoples common misconseption is that Traditional methods are not really applicable in a modern age. Why do people think this, people punched kicked and grappled in ancient Japan and China too! If they didn't we would not have oriental arts Full stop. we still have two arms and legs, we still head butt & kick in the nuts etc etc, all this was around when these arts where created! These traditional methods where created to deal with LIFE or DEATH situations so they must be effective - if they weren't then they would not have been used again! The only difference between now and then is the introduction of firearms, but these where used in many late samurai battles and there are defences in many traditional schools for riffles and hand guns.

Traditional JJ uses, wrist, arm, shoulder, neck, hip, knee, ankle & spine locks, breaks and dislocations as well as low kicks/ thrusts / stamps to the legs, nuts and stomach. It uses close quarter punching both for damage, shock and off balancing, it also uses long range punching for counters, damage etc, this is also used to induce the 'flinch reaction' that you talk about when people flinch they tend to be off balance = ouch youv'e been thrown!

Aikido may be effect for SD at the higher levels of students but I am not sure how effective it is at the lower levels.

Agreed. 1 year on the Senshusei (riot police) course at the yoshinkan hombu dojo will make you pretty good though!

steven segal can NOT fight like he does in the movies--nobody can.

Agreed but he is/was a formidable fighter and served as a close protection bodyguard before his movie thing - he only used Aikido.

I am not saying that Aikido or Traditional JJ are the best arts around (i dont practice Aikido) - that is down to the teacher you find - you personal abilities/ requirments, the amount of dedication you put in etc etc. But to dismiss trad methods just because you see people holding swords sometimes etc is just silly - some really are complete methods of combat - if they weren't then they would not have been used in the first place!

Cheers people

Chris

[Szczepankiewicz]

Both of which i believe are TRUE!

WEEEEELLLLL! If Chris believes it, it's good enough for me!

Keep up the good fight Mr. Davis.


Spanky

[David Hume]

Ok I went to a class from the Bujinkan people.

The instructor came across as a jerk
overall. He's a real sarcastic, smart ass guy - and he's British (maybe those descriptions are synonymous?). He had fun poking, kicking, slapping his black belt students when demonstrating moves. (this part wasn't necessary to demonstrate the move. for isntance, when the student was in a
locked position and he took the fake knife, he would hold it at chest length and drop the wood knife on the students head for amusement... clunk! as it hit)

I'm going to check out a few other arts in my area now just to make a better informed decision. I plan on committing a lot of time for several years at least so I don't want to regret my choice.

I hadn't realized the variety of ways to get treated like this. I would never take TKD in the ATA again because of the drill seargeant tactics and knuckle pushups - come on, I'm an adult now thank you.

Also, some of the Bujinkan students seemed like normal, sane people but the more advanced ones seemed... well, "sketchy."

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hume,

He's a real sarcastic, smart ass guy - and he's British (maybe those descriptions are synonymous?).

Boy you really got that one right!

As far as the Bujinkan guys being 'sketchy' I think that's a modest statement by far. Those guys are down right living in cloud cukoo land!


Read the books and you'll know what I mean.

Spanky

[shinbushi]

Bujinkan Instructor

As a Bujinkan Instructor who lived and trained in Japan for 7yrs, I have to agree that there are a lot of poor quality instructors in the US (Some good one too though). Israel, Spain and Sweden have some of the best instructors outside of Japan. As the Bujinkan is made up of 9 Classical Martial arts including a Classical jujutsu school, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, many of the instructors are too busy kata (2-man kata) collecting rather than working on the applications of the techniques from the kata. I try to make my classes useful and effective, but I also have intergraded the aliveness concepts from Matt Thorton’s Functional JKD. But even before that, the instructor I trained under in Japan, Toshiro Nagao (Ex- judo and Kickboxing champ) also focused on practicality over kata collecting.

[David Hume]

Funny thing, I was set on Bujikan or Jujitsu, but tonight I went to a Kempo karate school that was quite nice. They only aim for the practical, self-defense techniques (not a karate sporting school) and the people seemed very knowledgeable and pleasant to work with. (they're on the Ed Parker side of things in Karate). They also offer 7 total classes per week which would allow me to participate more (since I have the time) and it actually felt not too foreign from my Tae Kwon Do days 15 years ago.

I might end up doing Kempo and neither Bujikan nor Jujitsu. I guess these other factors weighed more heavily in my mind now that I've attended a few different schools - in fact, those factors may make the decision for me, rather than some prior desire/intention to study Jujitsu or Bujinkan.

Thanks to everyone above for comments and especially those that stressed trying out each school.

-David

[Szczepankiewicz]

Do they train full contact or pitty patti cake points?

Do they integrate grappling?

Do they talk about eye strikes and breaking necks in their choreographed self defense routines?


If they do the first two and lay off the third, I'd follow up with them. If they claim to break necks, ask them to show you first hand.

Talking about snapping necks and gouging eyes is totally different than doing so.....


SpankMeister of the Universe

[chris davis 200]

He's a real sarcastic, smart ass guy - and he's British (maybe those descriptions are synonymous?).

Bugger off - Im British!!!! or is that what you ment.

As far as the Bujinkan guys being 'sketchy' I think that's a modest statement by far. Those guys are down right living in cloud cukoo land!

Man o man i agree with you there!

I might end up doing Kempo and neither Bujikan nor Jujitsu.

Cool, whatever works for you mate.

If they do the first two and lay off the third, I'd follow up with them. If they claim to break necks, ask them to show you first hand.

Agreed, quite alot of kempo Karate is quite fictional even if they do state self defence. Ask yourself if the guy would still be stood there after the 50th strike of the defence technique!!

Alot of them dont seem to take into account how the opponent would react to getting hit. One demo i saw had the guy kicked in the balls(no contact) and he just stood there, then he was punched in the face and the chest and then sweeped and kicked in the balls again! dont know about you but after the first kick to the ball i would probably be on the floor!!

cheers
Chris

[Szczepankiewicz]

The Kempo gang uses effective techniques. My training partner is Kempo and I have sparred with him. He is wicked fast and accurate.

However, the kempo guys never train full contact. Don't do much grappling and work off of self defense progressions.

If I hit him here he does this, then I do this and he reacts this way.....

All I can say is go in with your eyes open.....


Spetznatz

[greekmai]

**If you want to seek out the transcendental meditation with some eclectic funky stuff, go bujinkan. But first, read some of Dr. Morris' books**.



Looks like we have a lot of uneducated members on this board that really know didley about Bujinkan and the art of Budo Taijutsu aka Ninjutsu.
For someone to quote the crap that Dr Morris writes clearly tells that you have some outdated info and should not quote it! Dr Morris has his own art and calls it **Hoshinjutsu**.

I am sick and tired of jerks that like to dis our art just because they happened to train or know someone that trained under a bujinkan teacher that was a jerk!
There are a lot of Bujinkan members and teachers that really know their stuff and we are not all crazy cowboys/cowgirls or have ineffective weapon work.

So you need to do your homework and try a couple of teachers out before you decide an art is not worthwhile. I have ex bjj, greco roman, tkd, jkd, kickboxing students that really appreciate our art and our teacher!

[Szczepankiewicz]

I am somehow mesmerized by the end of your post....


Well, when you finish with your tantrum, please take up the banner and explain to all us ignorant knuckleheads the differences between Bujinkan and Hoshinjitsu.


I for one am all ears.


Spank-the-Ninja

[jesse7]

LOL ... my thoughts exactly .. I red his post .. thought .. wtf is he talking about .. how about some explanation .. then suddenly I froze and stared at my monitor for a few mintutes.

[greekmai]

Hoshinjutsu

Glen Morris has appointed himself Soke of his own art **Hoshinjutsu**.

You could check out his website for yourself.

[jesse7]

Still dunno what you talking ab..... difj .g.disj ddjsids..dsf

[greekmai]

From my understanding, he has combined bujinkan techniques with other arts he has studied with an esoteric yoga and chi kung bend!