Knife Grips

[ryanhall]

GG,

You wrote:

Because first you will start to fight like a point fighter instead of a full contact fighter and two nearly every knife fight doesn't happen in a duel situation but a clinch situation or something close two it

I pretty much agree with you on this one. While I think that knife v knife sparring can be good for one's reflexes (just like stick sparring), it can develop bad habits. You are correct in saying that knife "duels" do not happen. A knife attack is usually an assassination, and you won't know a blade is in play until the hilt is protruding from your chest. That said, it is important to practice drawing your knife from the clinch and also being able to notice when an opponent tries to do the same. It is equally necessary to be able to recognize and deal with a palmed blade (very common method of stealth deployment). For these reasons, knife/weapons training is very important. Almost all real life attacks (not a shoving match) involve either: a weapon, multiple opponents, or one person physically outclassing the other.

No way, if you think your sharp knife is going to be cutting through skin muscle and bone you are dreaming.

Right. However, a good stab can do a whole lot to help your cause in a bad situation. Even if the pain isn't there because of adrenaline, seeing liters of blood pour from a new hole can send a person into shock. Also keep in mind a place like the throat, or better yet, the carotid artery. These places, especially the latter, will kill a person VERY quickly. A blade is extremely dangerous--much more so than most people give it credit for--and that alone makes training with it worthwhile.

What can you do. Catch, Trap or pass the weapon or weapon bearing limb and then go for a disarm? It's all in a dream world that this stuff works. Any one who has been in a knife fight and pulled one of those techniques off had been very lucky.

I agree again. They were lucky that they were able to bring their training into play, but it was (probably) their training that saved them. You won't see any fancy fine-motor FMA disarms though. Much more like control, attack the attacker, and peel the weapon--at least that's what works for me when I train weapons. Look at the Dog Brothers, and that's a lot closer to the real thing. The same situation arises from unarmed encounters. Most martial artists don't know how to bring their skills into play effectively. The mental game is extremely important. A knifing can be likened to a sucker punch. It has a high probability of success, it is hard to defend against, and the person who does it first has a big advantage. If you train to recognize the signs of something starting, you can hit first yourself, or at the very least be better able to defend against the attack. The same goes for the blade.

Sorry about the long post.

Ryan

[DeSoLaToR]

errr, wtf!!! how can u say that weapons trainging is not benficial ??? i do knife training not for the purpose of wanting to become a knife fighter, but to learn how a person would fight with a knife, so that way if somebody comes up to me with a knife i'd have an better idea of what to expect, and effectivly work out a way of disarming a knife fighter!!!!

now to me that is something very important..


here read this.. http://www.cqctactics.com/article.htm

[ryanhall]

I disagree with the article. An untrained person is just as deadly with a blade due to their unpredictability. A person with training thinks inside a box of what is the "right" and "wrong" thing to do. An untrained person will just stab you. Secondly, you will never have the opportunity to discern if you are facing a "trained" or "unskilled" opponent. Things happen too fast. Just seeing the blade is enough of a challenge. Train hard, but don't think that you will deal with a knife fighter. Your disarms/controls should not be based on a person doing the "smart" thing.

[DeSoLaToR]

no, an un trained person wit a knife would be alot easyer to deal with, most people with out training would just go for frontal stabs, and other "basic" combos which are alot easyer to disarm, but either way ur most likly gonna get cut.. but the chances of survial are alot higher against someone untrained.

[robertlee]

to get good at any hand held weapon you must improve your hand and arm delivery first as this controls that weapon. Then add the weapon.

[ryanhall]

no, an un trained person wit a knife would be alot easyer to deal with, most people with out training would just go for frontal stabs, and other "basic" combos which are alot easyer to disarm, but either way ur most likly gonna get cut.. but the chances of survial are alot higher against someone untrained.

No offense, but I am guessing that you know this from experience? If you think that you will be pulling "disarms" in a fluid attack of any kind, you've got another thing coming. It goes like THIS: Pass/Control, Attack/Terminate the attacker with everything you have. There's a BIG difference between an untrained buddy that you are trying to impress with your blade skill than someone who REALLY wants to KILL you with a knife (they don't use one for any other reason). Crazy and vicious with a blade=success almost every time against anybody.

P.S. and like I said, the point is moot because you will never have the time to judge your opponent's skill in a real confrontation (armed or unarmed). Things happen too quickly.

[DeSoLaToR]

lol, dude if some1 came up to me wit a knife i'd simply run away

and crazy + vicious = bad bad, because they would go with wide swings and slashs, instead of jabs..

wide swings and slashs are the the easyest to see coming simply by just looking at the chest of the fighter.. jabbs on the other hand, very hard to see coming.. and you would most likly get an arse kicking if some1 was doing jabbs..

[robertlee]

Cannot predict the fight with a weapon in use. training must incorpirate simpal defence tatics. Years ago I was ask by an instructor help him demo, a knife defence drill. I entered with a strike to his temple region he stumbled back fell down then got up and explained to the class that I was expected to lunge at his mid section. He did not say that to me I went for a kill strike he failed to defend. Meaning no planed attack happens in real life. Responce time must focus at the weapon and arm. You wont know where it will strike for sure until it happens. Chances are you will be cut unless the person is just trying to back you down. not likely though. To much conditioned knife training opens the door to mistakes as the street fighter will attack different and it will be for real. Try the rubber knife If you get stuck it would happen for real to. Testing the water helps.

[aseepish]

Originally posted by Groin Grab


Exactly this is why weapons training is a waste of time. What can you do. Catch, Trap or pass the weapon or weapon bearing limb and then go for a disarm?

What do you suggest then?

"No way, if you think your sharp knife is going to be cutting through skin muscle and bone you are dreaming. Come on man get back to reality. You're intestines alone are like thick rubber hoses man and the entire human torso is surrounded with ribs even if you get a good deep clean cut you will still have to deal with impact and pulling the blade out isn't always as easy as you think."

See Paul Vunak's Advanced Knife Fighting tape (Streetfighting series) - he demonstrates what a slash can do to a piece of meat.

You don't have to get cut on the torso to suffer a fatal wound. A trained knife fighter will slash whatever is closest first, and finish with a slash or thrust to the throat. A slash to the inside of the arm will kill. There are no rubber hoses or bones protecting your arteries there. For a stab to the torso, who cares about cutting intestines? If they are as resistant as you claim, the blade will glance off and sink into something softer - nick the stomach artery and you can bleed to unconsciousness in seconds. If you think your intestines are going to save you...

"No way, it will make you're foot work worst. Because first you will start to fight like a point fighter instead of a full contact fighter and two nearly every knife fight doesn't happen in a duel situation but a clinch situation or something close two it."

Knife sparring is a drill. It is not the be all and end all of training. I don't think you will develop bad habits if you train intelligently. If you dance around like a point-fighter you'll get clocked when you go back to regular sparring. Train knife sparring full contact - use low line kicks and your rear hand. Mix it up - have one person use a stick, give the other a knife. Do other drills - sumbrada, numerada, hubud-lubud, passing drills, sensitivity drills of all types. Don't focus on pre-aranged attacks, i.e. You give me a thrust and I work my magic.

I agree that if you are surprised and suddenly attacked with a knife your chances of survival are very slim. I also agree that this type of attack is much more common than any "duel" situation.
But training with a knife can give your reflexes and sensitivity a boost, and these attributes can make the difference between life and death. I'll take whatever advantage I can get, thank you!

[DeSoLaToR]

yes, muscle memory retentsion!!! thats why drills are good!