Kicking - self defense

[JKJKD]

Any technique kick or punch it dosen't matter, needs to be in combination with other techniques. This is what makes a fight and this is what makes a fighter.

A pure boxer has limitations because of his rules he trains a certain way. A pure boxer vs. a muy thai kick boxer may be in trouble because he has less resources to rely on.

I wouldn't discount a technique based on what a grappler will do because I think like a grappler as well as a kickboxer.

All techniques once understood have a purpose. If I needed a footstomp, I'll make it work, because I need it.

But I will say that will generaly stay away from the high kicks, I prefer the closest weapon to the closest target. But practicing high kicks makes stronger low kicks.

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Low kicks: Good as a stopper for advancing opponents. Has the element of surprise because they're quick. Safest kicks, but has the shortest distance. Against a quick opponent, low kicks are hard to land with any real power.
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This statement is only partially true:
low kicks are more than just a stopper. They are knee breakers, ankle tweakers and balls bruisers to name a few and the shortest distance is what makes it so quick and effective. Thats your advantage.

Any time you fight theres a possibility of being tackled. Not a problem, its just an

[ryanhall]

Medium kicks: Most powerful kicks because you use the full range of your hips. Good against hand techniques because they are harder to block and get inside. Also, you recover pretty good. However, medium kicks are the easy to avoid because they are telegraphed easily. Good against multiple assailants.

Good against multiple assailants? What are you basing THAT on? I can tell you one thing: it's not personal expeience. Kicking when faced with more than one assailant is never advisable, because movement is paramount, as is not falling over. I would avoid even using a low kick when faced with multiples, just for the fear that I may miss, slip, get tackled, etc. Good against hand techniques? Not seen many real brawls have you? I'm not trying to be insulting, but nobody squares off and uses "hand techniques" in a real fight. Please. Be honest.

Low kicks: Good as a stopper for advancing opponents. Has the element of surprise because they're quick. Safest kicks, but has the shortest distance. Against a quick opponent, low kicks are hard to land with any real power.

Actually, low kicks are quite easy to land with power. Certainly the easiest of all the levels. The best kicking targets are low anyways. Are you aware that most assaults and "fights" take place in a space a little bigger than a phone booth? Low kicks are your only legitimate option.

High kicks: Least favorable against a skilled opponent. Lends itself to various counters. Doesn’t have as much power as one believes. Can be devastating against a puncher if developed properly. Has the ability to knock out an opponent if it landed. The head is your primary target where solft spots are vulnerable: eyes, nose, ears and temple.

Least favorable. Period. You will never be able to judge your opponent's skill in real life. They offbalance you, are the most telegraphic kicks there are, and most of them do not have knockout power. It is easy to fall or be tackled while attempting a high kick. They are not impossible, but are EXTREMELY inadvisable for anyone interested in minimizing damage to themselves.

[Szczepankiewicz]

when faced with more than one assailant is never advisable

Again with the 'nevers'....

When will you imcompetent boobs learn???
I guess if you were as smart as me I wouldn't be needed here...


Seriously, I use low and medium kicks all the time in sparring. I use them in combinations with a host of other techniques, to include upper body strikes and grappling.

Our medium kicks are not performed from the front leg, but from the back leg being chambered and fired. This is of course telegraphed, but it's funny how an opponent can miss the obvious signals when they have a face full of Polish Fury that seems to be distracting them.

If all I did were the medium kicks, then yes, they would be easily dealt with. But, then again, this can be true of any single technique, no matter how sneaky you are.

Our front kick is chambered using the back leg to kick and the front leg for support. The whole body lines up and it is a pretty powerful kick.

This can be blocked, in which case I'll use other techniques.

This can be 'intercepted' or trapped. In which case you're using both arms and your body to trap my one leg, which is fairly heavy in itself due to my rotund nature. In that case I have other options. One of which is to do a back fall to the ground while pulling my trapped knee to my chest and performing a front kick (or a similar strike) to YOUR knee, shin, or thigh which, incidentally is perfectly lined up with my other striking foot.

Then the choice is on you, you can let go or take a few shots to your lower extremities. Either way I can adapt and do something else.

But Spanky, you dumb ass, you're now on the ground!

Well, Yeah, but I went down on my own power and after I convince you to let go of my leg, I can roll or perform other moves to get out of the bad situation and work towards standing back up. I have a nice set of techniques that tend to, surprisingly enough, all complement each other.

If one thing doesn't work, I can try many other techniques that may. If I happen to square off against a couple of baddass' such as RyanHall and Bri Thai then I'll have my work cut out for me, and in the end I may come out on the shit end of the stick. But the price they pay will be high indeed.

So scoff at my medium and low kicks
if you must

But I am THE internet Polish Assassin and I'll make you squeal like a leetle girl!!!!

I'm not the Don's leftenant because I'm good looking.


[insert maniacal laughter hear]

Spanky

[Kirves]

Re: Kicking - self defense

Originally posted by brad2
"Kicking is VERY overrated for self defense. I'd just like to point that out. Legs are better used for mobility."

Say that to a thai boxer. Or a Kyokushinkai karateka. Or Ashihara karateka. Or Genseiryu karateka. Fast and powerful low kicks are very useful. And don't forget you can kick with the knee, when you're up close!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Since when can you kick with the knee? I though you 'kneed' with the knee.


But, I suppose if you can 'punch' with the elbow, you can 'kick' with the knee.

Spanky

[Kirves]

Okay, bad choice of words (me noh speak englisch ). But you do the same front and roundhouse knee attacks as you do the kicks, you just do it up close and don't extend the leg.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by ryanhall


Good against multiple assailants? What are you basing THAT on? I can tell you one thing: it's not personal expeience. Kicking when faced with more than one assailant is never advisable, because movement is paramount, as is not falling over. I would avoid even using a low kick when faced with multiples, just for the fear that I may miss, slip, get tackled, etc. Good against hand techniques? Not seen many real brawls have you? I'm not trying to be insulting, but nobody squares off and uses "hand techniques" in a real fight. Please. Be honest.



Actually, low kicks are quite easy to land with power. Certainly the easiest of all the levels. The best kicking targets are low anyways. Are you aware that most assaults and "fights" take place in a space a little bigger than a phone booth? Low kicks are your only legitimate option.




Least favorable. Period. You will never be able to judge your opponent's skill in real life. They offbalance you, are the most telegraphic kicks there are, and most of them do not have knockout power. It is easy to fall or be tackled while attempting a high kick. They are not impossible, but are EXTREMELY inadvisable for anyone interested in minimizing damage to themselves.

For your information, this is based on personal information. Have you ever tried to ward off mutltiple attackers with punches or grappling? Doesn't work does it? Kicks are the best way to keep opponents at bay, especially if you have fast, devastating speed. With punches, you only get mauled because your range is too short. But the best is a combination of both.

As for your qoute about hand techniques... Many boxers use slips and punches in real street fights that are similar in the ring. The fights you are referring to are where people abandon all discipline when they're in a fight, probably because they're on television etc... These people don't need martial arts training, they're hopeless. Real fighters use their head... Try sparring with a good boxer, I gaurantee you he'll give you a good fight with his hands.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. We haven't had a good ol' fashioned pissing contest in at least a week.


This oughta be good.

[jesse7]

Real fights go straight to close quarters .. a kicks not gona ward off anyone on the street, let alone multiple attackers.. Id take a kick if it ment I was mashing your face with my fists.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by jesse7
Real fights go straight to close quarters .. a kicks not gona ward off anyone on the street, let alone multiple attackers.. Id take a kick if it ment I was mashing your face with my fists.

Since when are your arms long enough to reach while being kicked. I've taken plenty of punches in boxing to know that a solid kick can take the power out of any punch. Also, not all fights go to close quarters. It's usually the assailant who thinks he has an advantage by dragging someone down. Nothing that a good kick can't solve.

[jesse7]

Oh so your talking karate/TKD kicks? Like a snap kick or something?

I know if you use this kinda kick your gona land on your arse as whoever rushes at you trying to punch you. Those kinda kicks may work on someone standing still or moving backwards but someone rushing at you .. whatevAAA!. I think your talking about sparing situations.

[ryanhall]

Well, I had a giant rebuttle all written up when the stupid server disconnected. I'll try to recap:

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. We haven't had a good ol' fashioned pissing contest in at least a week.

Since Crazy Joe is still recuperating, I just thought it would be fun to sieze the initiative here.

The reasons that kicking is often inferior to moving:
1) It often leaves you a little unbalanced
2) Terrain can be a major factor in your balance, as well as in the power of your kick
3) Kicking range has the lowest potential for neutralizing an assailant
4) Most fights do NOT start any further than what most would call punching range. People get angry, and get in each other's faces. That's how things almost always happen--unless it is an ambush.
5) Kicking techniques are the most telegraphic tools in your arsenal
6) During the time it takes to throw your kick, unless your multiple attackers are lined up, you will allow the odd man out to tie you up or start hitting you

Since when are your arms long enough to reach while being kicked. I've taken plenty of punches in boxing to know that a solid kick can take the power out of any punch. Also, not all fights go to close quarters. It's usually the assailant who thinks he has an advantage by dragging someone down. Nothing that a good kick can't solve.

Incorrect. Though a solid kick can be very powerful, range often rules out classical kicking techniques. For example when a push kick (one of my personal favorites) is delivered to the thigh of an assailant, his hands will often drop, exposing his head for attack. Because of this, he will often try to grab a hold of your clothing or your person. This promotes a standup grappling situation. The fact that we are still arguing over this points to a problem here: a lack of understanding of combat. If the kick is there, take it. If not, don't. Just understand that kicking is not very often an option, as most of us (except Scott Kano) are not attacked while we are out tending the sheep in a field.

For your information, this is based on personal information. Have you ever tried to ward off mutltiple attackers with punches or grappling? Doesn't work does it? Kicks are the best way to keep opponents at bay, especially if you have fast, devastating speed. With punches, you only get mauled because your range is too short. But the best is a combination of both.

Actually, punching range is the preferred range for dealing with multiple assailants for the following reasons:
1) It is home to many of your quickest tools that still have power (punches, eye jabs, rakes, palm heels, elbows, web hand strikes, axe hands, etc.).
2) It is less telegraphic than kicking, but less committing than upright grappling (vertical plane).
3) It keeps you committed. Many of the top self defense experts will tell you (and I agree with them for what it's worth) that you MUST be committed to your assailant(s) in order to triumph. You will not win/survive by hanging on the fringe of the engagement. Get in there, and try to end it with the most effective set of strikes that you can muster.

How do I know this? Some personal experience, a lot of research, and talking/listening to many, many people who have "been there" and really know their stuff. I don't recall saying anything about horizontal grappling. It is undoubtedly the worst range for fighting multiples for obvious reasons. A combination of tools is ideal, but I choose movement over feet. You don't hang around to fight when you can run, and disengaging is always your first priority unless you have a child with you (or some other reason to stay). The most important part of fighting/surviving multiple opponents is stacking them--don't get between them, or you're finished.

TO BE CONTINUED

[jesse7]

Mmmmm tending

[ryanhall]

Again with the 'nevers'....

OK, I'll admit it was a poor choice of words. My bad. Now, back to my rant:

As for your qoute about hand techniques... Many boxers use slips and punches in real street fights that are similar in the ring. The fights you are referring to are where people abandon all discipline when they're in a fight, probably because they're on television etc... These people don't need martial arts training, they're hopeless. Real fighters use their head... Try sparring with a good boxer, I gaurantee you he'll give you a good fight with his hands.

A couple of my friends box, and one of them is quite good. Very solid in punching range (as might be expected). However, I don't have much faith in his ability to deal with a confrontation against a dangerous assailant, as said assailant will not "put up his dukes" to fight fair. His boxing skill would carry him through most situations, but there are no guarantees (just like everything else). Ever seen two boxers fight outside the ring? I have a couple times. Both of those times, they ended up clinching up and throwing a few weak hooks--not a glimmer of their incredible punching prowess. As for your comment about "real fighters," I have to let you know this: the most dangerous people you could run into are likely to be without training. What do the have going for them: they are mean, evil, strong, pain tolerant, and have a will to hurt you any way they can.

Say that to a thai boxer. Or a Kyokushinkai karateka. Or Ashihara karateka. Or Genseiryu karateka. Fast and powerful low kicks are very useful. And don't forget you can kick with the knee, when you're up close!

Seems like I'm arguing with everybody on this one. Well, I'd like to point out that being good in the ring or on the mat nowhere near guarantees success in a street fight. That said, a well-conditioned athlete will probably be a tough guy. However, has he dealt with the effects of adrenaline from real combat, uncertain terrain, low light, no referee, and no knowledge of the opponent or how far he is willing to go to win? Probably not.

If one thing doesn't work, I can try many other techniques that may. If I happen to square off against a couple of baddass' such as RyanHall and Bri Thai then I'll have my work cut out for me, and in the end I may come out on the shit end of the stick. But the price they pay will be high indeed.

You may beat me, but you'll never defeat the Maniac from Manchester. You'll probably have a hard time finding him though. I've heard he's usually off taking candy from babies and lunch money from kindergardeners--you know--police work .

So scoff at my medium and low kicks

OK. *insert French-sounding laugh* Just kidding. Just do whatever gets the job done for you. Just because I don't like/do something doesn't make it totally unworkable--just mostly. Don't let others set your limitations. But never, NEVER, ever...say never/always.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Oh, I'm sorry, were you finished?

Well, allow me to retort.

If the kick is there, take it.

Where oh where have I read that one......

I agree footwork is superior to kicking. Footwork transfers you into the Transportation realm.

Communication - Transportation - Striking - Grappling

Our continuim for dealing with self defense situations. The farther to the left you are, the less commitment you need to make AND you increase your chances for escape, which should 'always' be your ultimate goal, no?

As Scott Kano and Jesse7 will certainly attest, tending sheep is dangerous business!!!

You make some valid points. As to which techniques are more practical or more effective, I think it depends a lot on the situation. Kicks, as you have stipulated, are more powerful, whereas upper body strikes require less commitment. I agree with all your points on this topic. They seem to form some sense of weak logic...

Spanky