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Kicking - self defense

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  • #46
    JKJKD,
    I am always open to suggestions from others. If a joint lock works for you, then by all means, feel free to do it. The thing is that fine motor control (most standing locks) goes flying out of the picture when adrenaline kicks in. Also, stunning an opponent who is on crack, high, full of adrenaline, huge (choose one) is not as easy as you might think. You don't have time to toy around with someone in real life. The longer a fight goes on, the higher your chances of being seriously injured of killed go. Your goal should be to end things and escape immediately if not sooner.

    I think you misinterpreted what I meant about a "yes" person. By this, I mean someone who doesn't really have the spirit to fight or hurt you. A "yes" person could be 100 lbs or 250 lbs. It comes down to their mentality about what they are doing. You might be surprised at the kind of frenzied fight a "little" guy that looks weak can put up when he REALLY wants to hurt you--it's friggin primal rage. The desire to maim or kill someone/something can be a powerful thing to deal with. People, claw, flail, bite, wiggle, etc.--anything to make you let go so they can get to you. When someone goes half-assed at you, you might be able to apply a standing lock if you have put in the CONSIDERABLE time necesssary for learning it. Most likely, however, the lock will fail, exposing you to more danger.

    I got off track a bit, but my overriding point was that your goal should be to execute the fastest, most damaging tools you have at your disposal with as much surprise and conviction you can muster. In my opinion, training 300 (random high number) techniques slows down the decision making process. If you're in it for self defense, it's not necessary to bother with all that. If you're in it for sport or recreation, then by all means, learn as much as you can--it will help you on the mat. Just to note, however, even the best athletes have have only a few 3 or 4 techniques that they are great at, and they use them all the time. Take boxers for example--5 or 6 main punches. Out of that small number, they develop a "money punch" that can hopefully deal with an opponent at any time. Just something to think about.

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    • #47
      Ryan

      I think its all about how you train...
      I see where youre coming from when you say knowing 300+ techniques might slow down your thinking process...BUT
      You shouldn't have to think IF you trained correctly....you know, to the point where the techniques are second nature..
      Theres nothing wrong with knowing more stuff...hell.. if you are good with more techniques then youre even more dangerous !!
      You make it sound as if knowing more stuff is bad!!

      Agreed, for self defence it aint reeeally necessary to bother with all that - I like Vunaks RAT system and that is incredibly simple stuff anyone can learn...

      But if you do have those crazy techniques and youre very good at using them... more power to you...
      Last edited by Bau13; 01-17-2003, 01:33 AM.

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      • #48
        about being able to stay in control

        I know its not always clear what someone is trying to say. I think my biggest point was When I was in Karate I was exposed to Judo and Jujitsu, it made me think a bit, but not enough at that time.

        Later on I moved on to JKD. When I realized my standup game was becoming something I knew that somebody could just plow me over. So I went to BJJ to "fix" a weak area.

        Its about "being in control" exactly opposite of the example of claw, flail, bite, wiggle, etc.--anything to make you let go so they can get to you. That was my point. If you've ever had the chance to train in BJJ. Remember you're first day, remember the first time you rolled and white belts tapped you out left and right. I don't know if you can relate to that example but that is out of control.

        My opinion on the high number of techniques. It is true about the boxer, but you put that guy against a Muy Thai fighter and what have you? The boxer “may” come up short on some skills. Dosen’t mean he will lose, but he may lose.

        My Jujitsu can resemble "Aikido in Appearance" and I understand completely when you feel that theres no time to pull it off. The locks do work, but like all techniques, they must be modified to the situation at hand. My personal Jujitsu wouldn't appear to look like "Aikido in Appearance" because I use it in conjunction with JKD and BJJ. If you learn the techniques "correctly" and "IF" you are able to stay in control, you should be ale to pull from any of your resources.

        I used "AIKIDO" as an example because people frequently state that those type of techniques don't work. Don't get me wrong, I beleive Aikido works. Some arts take longer to learn, thus meaning it takes longer to e ale to modify them to work for you. It dosen't matter what art you practice If you are going to use it in a real situation it is going to be modified in some way.

        The arts have a lot of overkill, no doubt! But if all I needed was a small number of techniques to practice then I would have no chance of survival. All I would need to do is train under Sensei Tank Abbott. That ust my opinion.

        It boils down to being in control.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by ryanhall
          Thanks, Jesse. Great Sage, if you were half the warrior you claim to be, you would know that most martial arts techniques do NOT work very well or at all in real fights. A jab kick to the stomach? Good Lord. Joint locks and throws on a violent assailant? Not a chance. Period. Once shots start flying, that stuff usually goes out the window. The only reason cops like aikido is because people don't try to punch them as soon as they lay their hands on for a lock--they chill and try not to add to their sentence. If you go and talk to some people who have a lot of expericene with REAL fighting, they will tell you, as I tell you now, that locks and throws only work on "yes" people--those that don't really want to hurt you or don't have the ability to do it. If you ever want to try that lock/throw stuff, you almost always have to soften them up with blows and strikes first.



          Royce Gracie is a great sport fighter, and a greag 1 v 1 fighter. What the hell does he know about fighting multiple assailants. Have you seen their self defense books? Well, I won't take the time to bash them, but suffice it to say that they are NOT very good at all. And finally, nobody said kicking was USELESS. You selectively argue and fail to grasp even simple points. This has been agreed upon by everybody: low kicking has its place, but you do not have the room to throw kicks very often. Period.

          Sorry for the rant, guys.
          Ryan,
          I think you need find a better dojo or something. If you believe that most martial arts don't work, why do we even bother? I've been in enough fights to know that certain things work for me. Sure, I understand that there are people out there who no matter how hard to try, you can't take them out... it's life. But that's the reason we train, and discipline ourselves... I really don't see your point. Basically, you're saying that every martial-artist who uses kicks, throws and joint locks are useless, which is very naive. Well, I'll tell that my shins can break a bat and I'll bet them against opponents whenever the chance presents itself.

          Nobody said kicking was useless? Read the posts... It's been about how much you people feel kicking is inefficient.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by jesse7


            Its now obvious to me your've never been in a real fight, with someone that wants to hurt you bad. Oportunities just pretty much never present themselves for kicks .. sure now and then they MAY, if anything in a real fight your going to be using your knees if you do anythign with your legs.
            No, it's obvious YOU haven't been in a REAL fight... Try kneeing someone who's got more reach and power and he'll just overwhelm you. It's also obvious you don't have powerful kicks. I've trained my legs since I was 7 to the point where I can break just about anything. I'll take somone's knee out if I have to...

            Personally, I'm all for kneeing, as I practice that on a bag as well. But limiting yourself to one concept is not ideal. As I've stated before, I'll use kicks, punches and whatever techniques in my arsenal when the situation presents itself. I'm sure everyone has their own strategies and techniques that work better for them.

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            • #51
              Ok, Tex. Having a conversation with you is like punching yourself in the nuts repeatedly just for the hell of it. You are impervious to logic. The fact that you will tell me that most martial arts are anything at all for fighting or self defense is ridiculous. Why do Karate, Kung Fu, etc. all get destroyed in MMA? It's not a real fight, but it's a good competition. Most martial arts teach you just enough to get yourself killed in a real fight.

              Nobody said kicking was useless? Read the posts... It's been about how much you people feel kicking is inefficient.
              You are starting to try my patience. I REPEATEDLY STATED THAT KICKING HAD ITS PLACE, BUT MANY FACTORS OFTEN RULED OUT ITS USE.

              I think you need find a better dojo or something. If you believe that most martial arts don't work, why do we even bother? I've been in enough fights to know that certain things work for me. Sure, I understand that there are people out there who no matter how hard to try, you can't take them out... it's life. But that's the reason we train, and discipline ourselves... I really don't see your point. Basically, you're saying that every martial-artist who uses kicks, throws and joint locks are useless, which is very naive. Well, I'll tell that my shins can break a bat and I'll bet them against opponents whenever the chance presents itself.
              I have. Plain and simple, most martial arts do not teach you how to fight. Even less teach you how to effectively defend yourself (not the same thing at all). Once again, I DIDN'T SAY KICKING WAS USELESS. Yes, I believe that most people who train joint locks will get injured if they try to apply their knowledge on a powerful assailant. They can work, but are not high percentage techinques. It always depends on the situation. Frankly, I couldn't care less if your shins could break steel--it don't mean sh*t. It is a nice accomplishment to be certain, but it has nothing to do with personal protection.

              No, it's obvious YOU haven't been in a REAL fight... Try kneeing someone who's got more reach and power and he'll just overwhelm you. It's also obvious you don't have powerful kicks. I've trained my legs since I was 7 to the point where I can break just about anything. I'll take somone's knee out if I have to...
              Not much experience with the clinch, I assume. Controlling an opponent (even a much larger one) can be a very simple matter if one is skilled in the clinch and striking from that position. I hope you realize that it takes roughly 70 lbs of pressure to dislocate a knee--that's a lot for all you laypeople. It can be done, but the knee must be locked. Not as easy as you may think, no matter how hard you kick.

              This is just getting sorrier and sorrier...

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              • #52
                And yet you persist in explaining to the pigs how to roll around in the mud.

                Silly, silly man.

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                • #53
                  Ryan, I hear most of where your coming from but using MMA as the definitive dosen't work either. Its OK as a measuring guage but not the bottom line, which you probably didn't mean it to be anyway.

                  I'm a grappler, so I'm not biased. The rules in MMA competitions favor the grappler to not take an asswupping without a doubt. We don't even have to mention the obvious techniques, but a good example is no kicking your opponent when he's on his knees.

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                  • #54
                    You are starting to try my patience. I REPEATEDLY STATED THAT KICKING HAD ITS PLACE, BUT MANY FACTORS OFTEN RULED OUT ITS USE.

                    Who cares if your patience is running out... Shut up then.

                    This is the understatement of the day because it applies to any technique at anytime. Fighting is not fixed therefore you can never say when and what is going to be most effective. It all depends on the situation and opponent. That's the underlying logic behind my statement. Use whatever arsenal is at your disposal and do what you do best. You're implying as though kickers only use kicks... Don't be so naive.

                    Futhermore, it's a matter of opinion as to whether martial arts schools are effective in fighting or not. There's no fact to your statement. Your experience may lead you believe that most dojos are useless, but that's an opinion. What works for you isn't necessary going to work for someone else. No matter the fighting method, the person who trains hard everyday always something he can carry into a fight, be it speed, endurance, strength or just heart...

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                    • #55
                      May I reiterate here.

                      Pigs.

                      Mud.

                      Thanks.

                      Spanky

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                      • #56
                        Dislocation of the knee is incredibly easy. I accidentally dislocated my partners kneecap in light jkd sparring with a stop kick that hit a little high. He rushed in with a straightblast and I was faster with my kick than his blast.

                        but face it. you and Ryan will never agree. Most of the time I agree with Ryan. just not when it comes to kicking. I have had too much success and have taught people who have had great success with kicks to agree with him.

                        His viewpoint is biased due to his experience. He has obviously not see a great kicker in an altercation. That's okay there aren't many out there. And it takes a long time to become a good kicker.

                        Hell I want to build up enough power to knock out and possibly kill with one punch. If I were to ask how to do it everyone here would probably say it was stupid and couldn't be done. But I have seen many one punch knockouts and one near death one punch hit.

                        Because they haven't seen it does not make it impossible nor does me seeing it once make it likely.

                        In the mark Kerr documentry I saw a round kick to the face that took out a guy. So apparently even in PRIDE kicks are found useful.

                        just a thought

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                        • #57
                          Well said excessiveforce... I can live with that.

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                          • #58
                            Well said excessiveforce... I can live with that.
                            Well, at least we can agree on something

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                            • #59
                              Is XF up for the Nobel Peace Prize?

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