Real vs. Tournament Fighting

[Great Sage]

I get the feeling that the overall consensus in here is that tournament fighters and fighting would not fair well in realistic fighting... I beg to differ. There are certain truths in the martial arts, and it is these truths that are the basis for training. For instance, I’d like to argue a statement by ryanhall in an earlier debate.

ryanhall wrote: Royce Gracie is a great sport fighter, and a greag 1 v 1 fighter. What the hell does he know about fighting multiple assailants. Have you seen their self defense books? Well, I won't take the time to bash them, but suffice it to say that they are NOT very good at all.

Now, how would ryan know Royce Gracie is not a skilled fighter against multiple assailants? As far as I know, books can’t teach you the essence of any art. All books can do is provide you with illustrations and examples. A fighter such as Royce Gracie who has won a UFC championship among other events has a very good chance in a confrontation. At least better than most.

The person who believes that tournament fighters cannot fight is essentially saying: “Yeah, this person can beat many people in the ring, but he can’t beat someone who’s never beaten anyone...” I’ll tell you that the average martial artist has a better chance than someone with no training. Furthermore, even with 20 years of martial arts training, I wouldn’t want to be pitted against Royce Gracie, Mike Tyson or any other established fighter in a real fight. Common sense tells me that well-trained martial artists can handle themselves when the situation arises.

I understand that there are always unpredictable circumstances, but for the most part... I don’t buy into the idea that some street bum is going to defeat Royce Gracie in a real fight.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Do I get to pick the street bum?


What Ryanhall, Szczepankiewicz et al argue against is that success in the ring (i.e. controlled environment) is in no way an indicator of success outside of the ring (i.e. uncontrolled environment).

Royce Gracie and others who compete on a regular basis have superior conditioning and strong athletic ability. Not to mention the dude is an expert in BJJ.

So how do we know that Gracie is not an expert against multiple assailants? That's easy, Gracie never told us he was.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Do I get to pick the street bum?


What Ryanhall, Szczepankiewicz et al argue against is that success in the ring (i.e. controlled environment) is in no way an indicator of success outside of the ring (i.e. uncontrolled environment).

Hence, in the martial arts you are taught to controll the situation... All situations are uncontrolled to an extent, including tournaments... Nothing is fixed in a boxing match except the rules... However, in a real fight, I doubt a boxer will be adhering to these rules.

Royce Gracie and others who compete on a regular basis have superior conditioning and strong athletic ability. Not to mention the dude is an expert in BJJ. [/B][/QUOTE]

That just goes to prove my point, that conditioning and tournament saviness is an asset during combat.

So how do we know that Gracie is not an expert against multiple assailants? That's easy, Gracie never told us he was. [/B][/QUOTE]

Neither did he tell anyone he was going to win the first UFC.

[Szczepankiewicz]

A battle of quotes ensues....


Situational control is a nice illusion. I have never been taught to 'control the situation'. What I can do is control myself in the situation. And even that is easier said than done.


No one is saying that athletic ability and good endurance was anything other than an asset. The key difference is, was, and always will be psychological.

In any competition you are not dealing with the strong potential for lethal results. Hence the controlled environment.

Training and competing can improve many facets of your ability to defend yourself. This is not, nor has it been the point of contention.

What is the point is that competition is not street fighting is not self defense. There is a link to a very good article that addresses this topic on my web page.

Spanky

[ryanhall]

Ding ding. Look what we have here.

This same topic has been argued and debated to the point that even I don't want to talk much about it anymore. However, I will toss in a few ideas.

Reasons why you are misinterpreting what I say:
1) I never said that sport athletes would be unable to handle themselves in an uncontrolled environment. I merely stated that sport fighting is very, very different from the real thing.

2) I stated that I couldn't care less about what Royce Gracie has/had to say about fighting multiple assailants or dealing with weapons, because I have seen his stuff--it does not stack up with reality. I have no doubt in my mind that Mr. Gracie would acquit himself quite well against most unarmed assailants. However, his principles are extremely unsound for anything other than 1 v 1 engagements.

Neither did he tell anyone he was going to win the first UFC.

I respectfully question what that has to do with anything? The ability to win a tournament when you can do something that nobody else can do (grappling), is not too special. By no means am I demeaning his accomplishments. I am, however, pointing out that he knew everybody else's game, and they didn't know his--more than a small advantage. I can tell you that if 2 or 3 of his opponents had come into the octagon at the same time, he would not have fared so well.

Now, how would ryan know Royce Gracie is not a skilled fighter against multiple assailants?

One can never be absolutely certain, but I will go out on a limb and say that if Royce had tried many of the things he espoused in his books, he would probably not have lived long enough to win the first Ultimate Fighting Championship.

3) Nobody ever stated that condidtioning would be anything but an asset in survival. The better shape you are in, the better odds of your surviving a violent encounter.

“Yeah, this person can beat many people in the ring, but he can’t beat someone who’s never beaten anyone...”

The people that will give you the most trouble have beaten people. Maybe they did it with their buddies or maybe they did it on their own. The point is, that they are not strangers to violence or hurting people. Despite this, in many cases, I would still put my money on Mr. Gracie. There are many circumstances, however, in which the ability to fight in the classical sense does not even enter into the equation.

I don’t buy into the idea that some street bum is going to defeat Royce Gracie in a real fight.

I don't either. However, many of those "street bums" are not going to do something stupid like attempting to defeat our pal Royce. They will set him up, nail him when he least expects it, and the rest will be history. In addition, there are simply some people that you will not be able to beat with your hands, regardless of your skill. I prefer not to bank on running into the "right" street bums. The simple truth is that there are never any guarantees. The best you can hope for is controlling yourself, and trying to dictate the flow of an altercation. If you are proactive (making the first decicive move) and intelligent about what you do, your chances will be much better than if you were the greatest fighter the world had ever known who lets his ego get the better of him or allows the other person to strike first.

[ryanhall]

If you are truly interested in finding out the differences between the ring and the real thing, I strongly suggest that you look at these pages:

https://www.sammyfranco.com

https://www.senshido.com

https://www.geoffthompson.com

I look forward to hearing some feedback.

[jhinds]

Originally posted by ryanhall
In addition, there are simply some people that you will not be able to beat with your hands, regardless of your skill.

Please elaborate.

[Great Sage]

ryanhall,

I do apologize if I’ve misquoted you... You of all people, you have at least been constructive as opposed to just plain “explicit.” For that matter, you have at least earned my respect. However, I must disagree with you regarding Royce Gracie. I believe Mr. Gracie’s tactics against multiple assailants are at least based on trial and error, hypothetical strategy and extensive training. I do not believe Mr. Gracie would publish a book based solely on precognitive, illegitimate garbage.

Furthermore, there’s an old saying in the East: “If you trained your hardest and fought your best fight, yet still lose... you didn’t train hard enough.” Hence, martial artists alike forge their mind and body through relentless training, tournaments and seminars to prepare for such encounters.

I do agree that tournament fighting is NOT real fighting, but there are certain elements of tournament fighting that can be of help to a martial artist: Timing, precision and most importantly, an opponent. You see human beings are similar in many ways. In confrontations they revert to many basic characteristics: anger, fear, rage and sometimes overconfidence. Even in a tournament fight, fighters will encounter such psychological characteristics... Yet, being in this environment while competing with your emotions and skills is most assuredly the best way to simulate fighting. There are certain truths in tournament fighting that resemble real fighting: human emotions and the desire to prevail.

This is not to say that some kid who scores 3 points on you in point fighting will prevail in a real fight... but then again, who knows...

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Neither did he tell anyone he was going to win the first UFC.

Yes he did.


Fighting in any translation of the word needs athleticism, power, viciousness, experience, awareness, strategy, and psychology. You can get a lot of these through tournament fighting. You can get a lot of them through contact competitve sparring.

The main thing that should be stressed is the psychological factor. If any fighter (tournament goer or not) makes awareness mistakes, positional distance mistakes in the PRE-fight level.....he'll lose. Doesn't make a difference if he's even a martial artist or not. The only way for a person to avoid these mistakes is to realistically train them.

Other than that........ those attributes of power,stentgh, speed, etc. are all still in play.

If any fighter (tournament goer or not) wants to be prepared for multiple opponents, hidden knives, etc. he's got to train for it.
And even then Murphy's law can hit him in reality.

Ryu

[MrPoopy]

Anyone ever seen the street fighting videos on www.netbroadcaster.com? There's some pretty good clips on there.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Sage, competing is not the best way to train for self defense.


You are correct in that it is a good way to help deal with anxiety, fear, and train your body for the rigors of impact competition. There are many many wonderful benefits to competition.

But we'll have to bring on the Thunderdome if you want a marriage of the two.

[ryanhall]

Please elaborate.

Gladly. Some people are simply too big, too strong, too mean/vicious, too high, etc. (or a combination of the above) to really "win" against. Some people can be seemingly impossible to hurt/stop. Many a wannabe tough guy will tell you "I'll just get mad and kick your ass." They may be full of it, but a small number of people are simply inhuman. You may come out in one piece, but being greivously injured should not be very high on your list. Weapons were invented for a reason. If things get too hot, you may elect to use one.

I believe Mr. Gracie’s tactics against multiple assailants are at least based on trial and error, hypothetical strategy and extensive training. I do not believe Mr. Gracie would publish a book based solely on precognitive, illegitimate garbage.

I would certainly not call his work "illegitimate garbage," but I would say that there are much better things out there for realistic personal protection. The idea of locking up with one attacker and trying to choke him out before moving on to the next (an idea espoused in his text) is ludicrous. It MAY work, but there are far better options. In my opinion, anything based upon a purely physical response to a threat is lacking the keystone to success. In addition, a response based upon "technique" is also more likely to fail. In my experience before the confrontations that I have encountered, I felt a lack of confidence in my "technique" oriented ideas (by technique I mean something that requires perfect or near perfect execution for maximum effect--joint locks, some throws). Self-doubt can happen to anyone (it has to me), and as a result, I prefer to stick with the things that I can exercise the greatest amount of control over. This includes precontact psychology, first strike, striking in general, and simple grappling. One can not be sure of the strength, conditioning, readiness, etc. of an opponent as they can in a match fight. For this reason, I would not try for an *insert submission* unless the situation was very minor, as it would be an unpleasant surprise to find out that your attacker is twice as strong as you are half way through the attempt. I hope that I made my idea more clear, and I look forward to hearing your comments.

[Shadi]

Tournament fighting is a lot different from real fighting. Tournament fighting has rules and regulations. Such as no hitting in the groin, no bitting, no elbows to the back of the head, no hair pulling, no eye poking, and etc. Real fights, there is one rule...win at all costs. With that being said though, a Royce Gracie, Ken Shammrock, Frank Shammrock, Mike Tyson, Roy Jones jr., Mark Coleman, Don Frye, etc. Will still have an advantage. Because, of the simple fact they have had more experience. Not only that, but they train there bodies all the time.