The Raging Debate Continues

[Scott Kano]

Depending on what art it is, Some of them where developed to help one in hand to hand combat in the battlefield by samurai and the like.

[Szczepankiewicz]

It is truly a question of who you ask whence 'true' martial arts came from. One thing is for sure, it won't be 'settled' once and for all on the internet....

The Shaolin monks don't have the market of martial arts cornered, and never really have. Kung fu may be a different story however.

Bitty, that's a good post. The big thing between the way you are training and the way some people train is that you know the difference between a martial art, a fighting art, and self defense. You have years of LEO experience not to mention a big mouth that provides you with many opportunities to learn...


In my opinion, the only difference between striking 'vital points' (i.e. eyes, throat, knees) and other nasty stuff is the psychology (the WILL) to pull it off. The level of commitment has to be there. You can't do it half way. Striking you in the throat is an inch or two different from either your chin your your chest....

I train full contact full speed grappling and striking. I train jujutsu purely for self defense. I create space and exit stage left. I am all about self-preservation. The amount of damage I do to my opponent(s) is only a concern as far as I can create an avenue for me and mine to be safe.

The idea that I can kick ass or walk into a bar and walk out again is all about fighting. I am not into fighting as I wish to preserve my pretty face.

I don't have all the answers to self-defense. Hell, I can't even come up with a good definition. The key is realizing what is NOT self-defense. Through your training and a process of elimination you may find what you need.

There are some essentials that I believe must be included in your training:
1) Full contact striking
2) Grappling
3) Effective transportation
4) Situational awareness
5) Adrenaline management

This is just MY list and is a work in progress. I can no more answer for you what is self-defense than I can tell you what God is. Any person who is convinced they know either may be in for a rude awakening.

As the saying from the Animal goes "Only fools and madmen are certain".

I'm no fool
I'm no madman
and I'm definitely not certain.

Spanky

[Guest]

In one sense, full contact sparring is actually undermining your ability to fight for real in a life or death struggle.

Not many people will be able to do it without trying their best to win the session. In fact, to many, I will sound daft for thinking that you SHOULDN'T try to win.

However, if the point of your training is to improve your chances for survival in a real encounter, then the point of your sparring has to be to LEARN, not win. See the difference?

Now think of the rules in full contact. Look at all the "don't do this and don't do that" elements. If you want to train to survive a real life or death struggle, then DO those things, in training and in reality. And you can't actually do them on an opponent.

[ryanhall]

Sparring is just a tool to develop a feel for your body weapons, not the real thing. I agree with Bri Thai that an overemphasis on sparring could be detrimental, but I submit that it is also very beneficial when used properly. Many introduce it too early, hampering the student. It is inadvisable to spar just for the sake of sparring. When done at the proper time, however, full contact sparring can help one to learn how to take a hit and keep on coming, how to move (not dance around), and how to deal with a resisting opponent. In order to train for reality, you certainly need to have some full contact training (sparring, scenario, or otherwise).

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Sparring is just a tool to develop a feel for your body weapons, not the real thing. I agree with Bri Thai that an overemphasis on sparring could be detrimental, but I submit that it is also very beneficial when used properly.

yep, if used properly that is....

Many introduce it too early, hampering the student. It is inadvisable to spar just for the sake of sparring

Im sorry i dont see how introducing sparing early is a bad thing......(maybe it just works or my system.....)

[ryanhall]

I don't mean controlled sparring (i.e. isolation sparring where you each work one or two tools for the entire match). I am referring to full-contact sparring or all-range sparring when the fighters do not have a solid defensive and offensive base. Without those, it's just brawling (counterproductive). It's up to the instructor to decide when is the right time. I didn't give a timetable, so I don't know what you would believe to be too early or not early enough. When did you begin sparring at your school?

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall
I don't mean controlled sparring (i.e. isolation sparring where you each work one or two tools for the entire match). I am referring to full-contact sparring or all-range sparring when the fighters do not have a solid defensive and offensive base. Without those, it's just brawling (counterproductive). It's up to the instructor to decide when is the right time. I didn't give a timetable, so I don't know what you would believe to be too early or not early enough. When did you begin sparring at your school?

the first class....it works its a little different though,

Starts of with avoidence (grab, punch, kick), then diflection (grab, punch, kick) Then you try to take down the attacker without hurting yourself (pretty much anything goes, be creative)

We spar for a short time at least every class, we do some "modified sparring" i guess you could call it, for example alot of group work, group drills (two guys twist your arms in different directions you try to "work out of it). we would have to stay in one spot and try to avoid kicks...simple 2v1 gran avoid drills, deflection punching (hitting two guys in one movement)

all the drills sort of culmonate into sparing. starts off slow, then picks up the pace is generaly how it works.

Theres a whole lot of different stuff we do, would take hours to write it all down.

we also change the levels(hight) at wich you fight, lowering your stance until your at duckwalk level, and try to avoid kicks and such.

"soft" work and "hard" work.....The intensity is up to you realy, if the guy is punching to soft tell him "you can punch harder"
basicaly play around and try different things to find out what works and doesn't.

personaly the worst iv got out of it was a black eye, sore gaw, jammed toe (not badly) basicaly bruses. But some people there joke "iv never been beat so badly in my life" most of that is with the instructor.....or students with extensive MA background.

There is pain managment training.....but it starts of "slow".

the intent is not to struggle with oponent, but to escape/win no matter how strong the oponent is, without using your "muscles" i guess you could describe it.

we incorporate injurie simulation (do A, B, C but only standing on one leg, or only use legs) We are not incouraged to use matts (though begginers can) so all (some for others) of ground work is done on thinly carpeted concrete.

we sit on the ground and get kicked trying to move with it, use the momentum to roll away...

Theres realy tons of stuff we do, kinda hard to explain though.

we dont cover the same things every class......this was just a very brief summery of what goes on in the classes, for the most part.....

did that help?

[ryanhall]

did that help?

Yes. Thank you for elaborating.

I think I have a better feel for what you are doing. A lot of it seems like familiarization training to help you deal with and understand a variety of attacks, as well as some basic scenario work. Both of those are fine. What I said about sparring was in reference to balls to the wall, all out fighting. I think it's better to wait for that kind of stuff. Don't see any reason not to jump right in with the scenarios and attribute developers though.

[RBFC]

In my opinion, as soon as students are able to use a tool (eye gouge, elbow, etc.) , they should be allowed to experiment with its usage in realistic self-defense scenarios. To engage in sparring practice (not bad as an attribute developer, but limited for SD) instills a sense of ease when it will not exist in a real situation. Real fights do not start with the opponents squaring off.

PICTURE THIS: Drunk biker bows and assumes fighting stance. He shouts to guy at next table, " Hey, A**hole, you spilled my beer!"

PICTURE THIS: Rapist bows and assumes fighting stance. He states to woman, " You sure look hot in that miniskirt. I will now rape you!"

Before someone goes off the handle, these are EXAGGERATIONS. But, they are meant to illustrate a point. Real fights are often preceded by other interaction with the opponent. You do not anticipate a fight (as a pro fighter studies his opponent for weeks before the fight), you do not know what conditions will be imposed on the fight (sport: mats, time limits, rules, etc.), you WILL be called on to "multi-task" while initial engagement with opponent is happening ( talking, defusing, arguing, etc.--not the typical single-minded readiness for ruled combat).

There are many more elements involved in SD than simply fighting/sparring. While sparring skill is certainly some help, there are other areas where a "street-wise" punk can easily defeat someone who is a great sparrer. Competent SD training is more involved than fight training.

Lee

[ryanhall]

Amen, Lee.

[Bruce_Fan]

What's the solution though?

Hey Kingston, Bri, Spanky and Ryan!

What is it that you guys recommend a martial artist to do?
(This is not meant as a flame by any means.)
I agree that even supposed "No Hold Barred" matches such as the UFC are clearly not the same as street fighting.

However, the question is how do we train to be prepared for a real fight?
This is not to advocate that you should go out and pick a fight.
Nevertheless, if you are in a situation where the risk is high for a fight (Bad part of town, your job, or a 100 other reasons), how should you train?

Full contact sparring is as close as we can come to simulating a real fight. I think we can all agree on that.
What else should we be doing? It is clear that the rest of the issue is regarding the Mental aspects of a fight.
By Mental Aspects, I mean Managing FEAR, ADRENALINE, and Understanding Rules or the lack of them!
---------------

I will say this however: The effects and value of full contact sparring with another trained fighter can not be over emphasized. Let's look at one particular art: Western Boxing.
It lacks kicking, trapping and grappling range for the most part.
There are no holds or chokes, elbows and etc.....
Yet, a good boxer can be very effective in a street fight. Throwing a series of blows in a quick combination is all it takes to knock the **** out of your average bar idiot.
Would you not agree?


Bruce_Fan

[Guest]

Take a look here - www.geoffthompson.com

Alot of the books overlap, and I think the best one may be "Dead or Alive". It is a bit weak in the technical area in my opinion, but has excellent information re pre fight issues.