TKD and other martial arts!

[Typhoon]

I have a very important question, TKD is considered teh world most widely stidied martial art. Then why is there so much TKD bashing around like: TKD is for whimps, its completely uneffective, and so on....

I am just curious is to why is there so much hatred towards TKD.

[kh_s]

People here in this forum thinks it`s useless; "Who would ever try a fancy moves on the street?" Thats one example. And people here think that their kicks are weak because they do snap kicks, and it`s true. Theres probably more reasons.

[eXcessiveForce]

because most of the people in this forum did TKD for a year or less and never got any good at it. The misunderstand TKD and the techniques and the uses.
There are many lousy TKD people out there. Also, TKD is marketed to everyone some for fun, some for exercise and some for combat. The reality is there isn't much call for combat TKD training. Americans don't like it. They don't like to train hard enough to make it effective and Mom's don't want you teaching children how to kill and maim people.

The others in this forum are 14 or 15 and believe what ever they are told. In my TKD training I have studied BBJ, Judo, JJ, Aikido, Kali, Silat, Krav Maga and a few more than I can shake a stick at. And I am very comfortable with my TKD training and my abilities.

I kick hard, Very hard, and very fast, but I have been working on my kicks for 20 years. I know when to use the tools I have and when not too. And I am realistic. I realize I am not going to be dealing with professional boxers or NHB people.

To many of the people on here think that they are going to train in a system that will give them all the answers. Some even will go without training instead of learn a system that is there.

Once you know a system you know it's strengths and weaknesses. There is no system that has all strengths and no weaknesses.

Best thing here is not to worry about it. They have their opinions but who cares if they like TKD. Hell I have a JKD instructor that runs my TKD school for me.

Heck when I explained how I taught at my TKD school I was told I didn't teach TKD anymore but more like JKD.

I'll be damned if I let a 14 year old snot nosed kid tell me that TKD is worthless. And I would be happy to bring in one of my younger students and let them find out for themselves.

Hell I'd be happy to do it myself.

Hell some people say that Muay Thai Kicks are stronger than TKD kicks but if you read all there posts you find out they haven't done either.

But TKD bashing is the norm around here get used to it.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

"Hell some people say that Muay Thai Kicks are stronger than TKD kicks but if you read all there posts you find out they haven't done either.

But TKD bashing is the norm around here get used to it."



I did TKD for 10 years and competed alot before. I went to very reputable W.T.F. schools in both the US and Canada.

I do Muay Thai and BJJ now.


I cannot fathom any advantages TKD would have over Muay Thai.

Furthermore the TKD in the US is pretty similar to the TKD in South Korea now. With Olympic TKD being in effect, the US is pretty competitive in terms of quality control with South Korea.


So it is really a moot point about the TKD in the US being watered down.

[eXcessiveForce]

Songahm TKD is the most widely practiced form of TKD in the world right now. It has ground fighting, Knife work, stick work, Joint locks...etc. W.T.F. is the sport style of TKD. They went that way a long time ago. I too studied W.T.F. and found the system so lacking and he organization so poor that I left.

One simple reason to do TKD over Muay Thai, In the system I learn you learn how to do Kicks in several different ways. Some would be called here "muay Thai" kicks. But they have been doing them in the style of TKD I studied since at least the early 80's. And we have ground fighting. Muay Thai does not. That is why to be complete you must cross train if you are going to do Muay Thai.

So a system that has ground work vs. one that does not. Well that has been argued to death on here.

I'm not saying Muay Thai is a bad style or anything like that. Just that if someone trains TKD with as much dedication they are capable of becoming a great fighter. Most people in the US do not want to train that hard. So Most TKD schools teach what the masses want because that is where the money is.

[da_mill]

Its all about marketing - As you said it's probably considered the worlds most practised "martial art".

I say "martial art" because lots of people do it for the fitness and fun, some do it because they like it, others compete, etc. It's the most commercially viable MA around, and hence it gets milked and watered down to make money, simple as.

I'm sure most of the forum would agree that the instructor and the person are the main features, not the discipline - however I note that this has been studied before and there are agreed strengths and weaknesses of certain arts and hench strengths and weaknesses over one another.

I know TKD practioners that can fight very very well. I personally started it but gave it up (at the same school where these "very good" people attended.) A lot of it is down to you, the art provides a basis for the tools?

[Great Sage]

People just love to hate TKD because they’re not good at kicking or they went to a lousy dojan. I agree that TKD schools in general have been institutionalized and marketed for safe, fun and practical martial arts exercise... However, the core of REAL TKD encompasses the essence of the martial arts. REAL TKD was created to combat soldiers, to kill and defend at will.

In some regards the US has caught up with Korean TKD... Both have become marketing campaigns in one way or another... However in certain circles, good TKD is still practiced... Not too long ago, certain dojans still utilized the original three belts: white, brown and black while some schools prefer the original forms: chon ji etc...

Muay Thai among other arts are beginning to move in the same direction TKD is... By and large, Thai instructors have come oversea to teach for money because there is little to be made in Thailand. While some are respectable, many are not as impressive. It’s naive to assume all Thai Boxing gyms are credible. I’ve gone to a few that weren’t.

In all my years as a martial artist, I’ve come full circle back to TKD. There is nothing in my experience to suggest that Muay Thai kicks are better, or that Jui jitsu is better etc... TKD works for me because I’ve developed power, speed and timing through it alone. For others it may be different... But do not insult an martial art’s integrity simply because it does not work for you... I’ve found out the hard way... the first time I sparred a Muay Thai fighter, I was surprised by how quick and powerful this legs were... so you never can tell.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

"Songahm TKD is the most widely practiced form of TKD in the world right now."


No way, crappy or not, WTF style TKD is the most practiced MA in the world.


"In the system I learn you learn how to do Kicks in several different ways."

You know the beauty of Muay Thai is the simplicity. Not to mention most of the techniques you learn, you can use it to compete. Like it or not, it is the "sport techniques" used day in and day out sparring people that will prove to be the most effective used techniques in any street style confrontation.

"However, the core of REAL TKD encompasses the essence of the martial arts. REAL TKD was created to combat soldiers, to kill and defend at will. "


I don't know about that, since I am a Korean, I've taken quite an interest in researching all I could about my ancestory and heritage. Most of the older generations that I've consulted with and research I've done have concluded that the TKD really started after the Japanese occupation of Korea had ended. When Korea was a colony of Japan almost all traces of korean MA have been destroyed. The creation of most Korean MA, especially now owes most if not all of its roots from the Japanese MA. Korean MA in general is not that old in that comparison. I hear alot of arguments about TKD being practiced in secret etc. but General Choi seems to be the primary figure indirectly responsible for Songaham TKD. If I recall my history correctly, General Choi spent a goodly time in Japan where he was exposed to their influences as well.

So while I will not go so far to say that my opinion is entirely conclusive, it is in my opinion that your statement is debatable.


"And we have ground fighting. Muay Thai does not. That is why to be complete you must cross train if you are going to do Muay Thai"


LOL if you want to know groundfighting, I'd leantowards wrestling, BJJ or even judo. Certainly not any style or school that does not particapte in some type of competitive venue outside their own school. Cmpetition is probably the only way to really encourage evolution in MA and personal development in skill. It certainly proves to be true in MAs that focus on grappling. You can pretty much go all out with grappling without fear of really watering down the techniques. Of course if your school does regularly partake in grappling competitions, I apoligize for my asumptions.

Furthermore, I've studied a set of books released by General Choi himself that covered his version of TKD, I did not see too much groundwork.



One or two armbars and two guardpasses does not transform an MA into a multifaceted system or at least an effective one. Just because you threw in a few throws and knife fights, and get to practice them on "self-defence" nights once a week, does not really make your system a more effective one.

And if you really want to get into it, there is other forms of Muay Thai that do include sticks and knives, in fact the original form of Muay Thai was developed for soldiers as well.

[eXcessiveForce]

I believe you are referring to ITF since General Choi had no influence on Songahm TKD.

Songahm TKD has the most members world wide. You can call them and they will give you the figures. I've asked several times.


WTF and ITF are the two Korean forms of TKD. WTF is sport oriented and ITF looks more like Shotokan Karate.

They both are based mostly on Japanese systems and that is why they use altered japanese forms. Notice the Lack of kicking in the forms as Taeguek and (palgwae Sp? sorry been a long time since I needed to spell that and I'm too lazy to go look it up.)
That is because they were based on japanese forms of martial arts.

Songahm TKD was created by H. U. Lee in the United States after arguing with the old koreans who would not accept change. He introduced Songahm Forms which were designed for TKD. Since then Songahm TKD. Under it's three names. American Taekwondo Association, Songahm Taekwondo Federation, and World Traditional Taekwondo Union. Have the most Actively training members of any martial art.

Songahm TKD turned down being a part of the olympics because it did not fit into the framework that had been set forth for it. They wanted to avoid the political fights and stick to teaching TKD and making money.

Taekwondo was created by General Choi, He came up with the name when they searched to find the techniques that were being used through out korea.

I do not believe TKD was ever practiced in secret but other arts in korea were.

H. U. Lee was a trainer for the Korean Military for TKD. The trained american soilders in hand to hand combat. Some soilders were so impressed the sponsered him to come to the united states.

Songahm Changed its ground fighting system to the Gracie JJ system in the mid 1990's It sent most of the senior masters down to train with the gracies personally if the information I was given is correct.

Songahm TKD students if they wish can attend open grappling tournaments if they choose to. And many do. As well as open TKD tournaments. The Songahm TKD tournaments are closed tournaments. This is for reasons to lengthy for me to post.

[brad2]

excessiveforce, what do you think of WTA tkd? I have done that style, there are only 3 kicks they practice. Side kick, front kick, roundhouse. There are no spinning or jumping kicks. Its not the typical tkd everyone hates.

[Typhoon]

Well I myslef train in muy thai. And I like the hand techniques that they use but I really feel (once again just my own opinion I am not askign anyone to agree with me) that muy thai lacks in the kicking department. Although I agree that simplicity works on the street but I really feel that you should know as much stuff as possible and then adapt that to any way you want. And the reason I created this post was because My instructer also teaches Tae kwon do at his dojo, while a guy from thai land Mr.K we call him his real name is really long, teaches most of his kickboxign classes. My isntructer who teaches tae kwon do does not teach traditional tae kwon do he adds his experiences form bouncing, and body guard work to it while still teaching tae kwon do. His students do compete in tae kwon do tournaments but he teacehs his classes mostly for self defence not for competitions, His tae kwon do consists of kicking, punching, groundwork, joint locks and much more. Also he has Joe Lewis come in and Bill Wallace, to do seminars quite often(because he trained under Joe Lewis and somehow is good friends with Bill Wallace a.k.a Superfoot) I ve spoken with them both and met them. The point here is that the people that are sayign TKD sux are either not contributing to the training that they are giving or their instructers just teach them the "tournament" tae kwon do which is very limited by rules. Now I am not sayign tournaments dont make you a better fighter any experience does but instructers who teach strictly tournament TKD dont teach all the usefull moves of it. That why it I do not understand why peopel look down on Tae Kwon Do so much.

[Mateo]

Tae Kwon Do was the second or third martial art I studied.I sought it out because I heard that it emphasized kicking, which I was very ineffective at.I was particularly impressed with our instructor, SunHwan Chung who was a 7th or 8th degree black belt at the time(his title now is 9th dan grand master).This guy moved like lightning, and he could snap out about four kicks to various points on an opponent's body in the blink of an eye.After studying for about two years, my opinion is that TKD is excellent for conditioning purposes due to all the kicking and other dynamic movements involved and has some useful applications for combat.I can't really compare it to Muay Thai, as I have only learned a few movements in that style.

[Kirves]

As seen, there are lots of opinions on tkd. What I have noticed is this:

1. I have never ever met a tkd student or teacher who knew how to fight (some tell me rumours that someone with 20 years of tkd training are good, but many of us never see them, and many of us don't want to wait 20 years to be any good)

2. Tkd dojangs often give belt ranks very fast, it is normal to meet an underage student who studied 2-4 years and has black belt. Usually he knows just about nothing about real fighting, but that's not something that's asked for a black belt, they have to know some solo forms and know how to fight with the tkd rules (which recommend kicking over punching, high kicks over low kicks and so on).

[Cain]

hmm

If eople are to judge Taekwon-Do over the McDojangs in US, ou might as well not comment at all.. in 'normal' taekwon-do, a minimum blackbelt-time is about 5-6 years, and most train longer to achieve it. And fighters..? again i point at tomaz barrada.. as an example.. But again, doing this "my style is much better than your style" bullshit is just stupid.. please grow up and change the subjects..? As most of us agrees, what teacher you personally have, and how you take on training is far more important than what style you train, imho..

[Typhoon]

Thats exactly how I feel that is why I was so dissapointed when I saw so many peopel bash TKD as being completely unaffective I have taken Muy Thai and Karate before for quite a while so I do have somethign to compare to. Its not the style Its what you make of what you learn and how you apply it on the street its as simple as that