What Kata's are and are not!

[rooke]

Sigh...

You first justify karate by saying that "Kyokushin guys kick butt in the ring and various full contact tournaments," but then you go on to add that karate is better because id does not focus on the ring? Contradiction.
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Rather than trying to find a semantic way to counter my argument, just take what I said. I stand by my statements and don't see them as contradictory.
1) Karate is not about ring fighting.
2) Despite this, Kyokushin guys kick butt in the ring.

This is like saying my cooking is a reflection of my artistic endeavors. But my cooking also feeds me when I'm not concerned about art. They're not contradictory...its just an ode to how vast my cooking skills are...just like Karate is vast and can accomidate many things, but its not about an individual thing.

Do you strike a solid surface in kata practice?
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No, but you do in Makiwara training.

Do you visualize the same set of attacks and counters in a shadowboxing session?
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Jab, jab, cross is a common technique in boxing and is taught. If I teach you how to throw a good jab, that's a kata. Then if you throw in in combinations, that's ADVANCED application of kata. Just like mixing up the moves in kata is ADVANCED application, but first you NEED to know the basics. And you NEED to practice the basics OVER and OVER (just like Mike Tyson still practices his jab and cross).

If you answered "yes" to both, then you are correct that they are kata. If not, then your arguement falls apart.
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Didja take some philosophy class recently? The statements are not contradictory and without opportunity for further explanation,its simply attacking my semantics.

I have never taken karate either. I don't need to formall learn a system in order to form an opinion on it. I have, however, taken an art that does make use of forms training (Hapkido). It was a royal waste of my time. Forms are like dancing. Really. As far as I know, Muay Thai and Kali/Escrima/Arnis do not make use of forms. Silat and Bando are about the only other mainstream Southeast Asian arts that come readily to mind. Do they use forms? I've never seen someone who doesn't study an art agrue so much for its legitimacy. Wouldn't your opinion of karate (as someone who has never studied it) be just as uninfomed as mine? It would stand to reason so.
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The difference is this. Most of you say "VIRTUALLY ALL karate is bad". I'm saying I've seen some GREAT karate and that it exists. I've never argued ALL karate is good. Do you see the difference? This isn't a bag. I'm seriously trying to see if you understand the difference between the statements. And yes, I know "VIRTUALLY ALL" <> "ALL", but I'm replying to a huge surge of posts that claim it. I'm the devil's advocate here.

But I thought you didn't take karate? I find it hard to keep up with all the schools in my area, much less know what goes on at them. Are you sure that you've not taken a karate class here or there?
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My fiance studies karate. Her instructor is top-notch, and was a student of Sensei Oshima. I have taught people who've done GOOD karate (and some people who echo your sentiments about your forms classes and don't understand their forms).

Rooke

[ryanhall]

Rooke,
Good response. Just trying to spark a little debate. However, I still see absolutely no reason for the practice of kata for fighting. Excessive Force rightly points out that sports such as golf and baseball do practice "forms" of sorts (i.e. dry swings). He is flawed in his reasoning, however as a sporting environment with very specific rules is far more sterile than even a sparring match, which in turn doesn't begin to compete with a real violent encounter. In golf, the ball won't jump off the tee and hit you in the eye if you aren't careful. It just sits there waiting to be hit. For this reason, you need practice only one motion, not worrying about anything else. Same thing goes for baseball. In the field, where there are many more options, you don't see "dry run" practice--running around pretending to throw and catch a ball. As the variables increase, there is less and less set practice.

You see a boxer practicing his jab or his cross. This is not a kata. This is proficiency training. It is a single isolated tool that is being perfected. You don't see him go through an imaginary round the same way every time. Boxers have combos, but they are not 12 steps long and the same each time (I am aware that Thai boxers practice much longer combos for the purpose of getting the feeling of what it is like to string strikes together). The point is, that when you work a single tool, you are working it as it will be used. It can be used in conjunction with other tools, but it is being practiced the way it will be applied. When was the last time you used even half of one of your katas in sparring?

To put it succintly, kata is worthless for real world applications. Things move too quickly for pre-programmed responses. End of story.

[rooke]

Again I disagree

This sounds alot like the old "Aliveness" thing, which I feel is flawed.

Here's the issue. A boxer is shown an ideal jab. This is necessary. Bouncing forward to bring weight and such. Then he practices it a billion ways. Kata.

A kata is practiced in an IDEAL fashion as a benchmark to know what starts where. After that, the moves should be practiced against a resisting opponent... An individual move from that kata, is then used on the inside of a punch, on the outside of a punch, when the opponent kicks, down low, up high, etc. etc. This is all the boxer does with his 5 or 6 katas (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, and whatever else I might have missed). The kata by itself, without application against an opponent is not as effective. But the kata DOES teach follow-ups (yes...I believe they DO teach timing when done right, contrary to the aliveness brigade). It teaches "ideal" angles and position, which need to change to accomidate a moving opponent (just like boxing punches do).

You're blaming an art, when its really the training.

Rooke

[eXcessiveForce]

Ryan, you are missing the point of Kata training. You are never supposed to think. OH god, my life is on the line what kata will I do to save myself. Kata is simply drilling several combinations strung together. Often Kata's will have two move combo's 3 move and sometimes 5 moves. The whole kata may have 20 or 30 moves but they are make up of combos.

People are looking at Kata like it is to be used as a tool in totality for self defense. It is not, nor was it ever intended for that purpose.

It's whole design is to drill technique to build speed, form, and proficiency with the material. The next step is to move on to the bags and work the combinations and learn to adapt the new material.

I would venture to say that no combination can be carried out in every self defense situation. Not even a single technique could be used every time. If your situation starts with you getting tackled from behind, your jab cross hook combo is shot.

Same way, you may use element from a kata in a self defense situation but you are not thinking. Oh this is the third part of my fifth kata. You are simply responding.

When I learned to type I started with keyboard drills. asdf asdf and ended up typing them over and over. Now when I type I don't need to think about what keys my fingers are trying to hit they just do it. Sometimes they even screw up and type a word that starts off the same way and complete it before I realize that I've done it. That is what kata training is supposed to do for you combos.

It has done precisely that for me. I remember working with a high rank sparring. He was pretty good but when I hit him a good one he dropped his hands thinking we were going to critique. Instead he got hit about seven more times before I realized he had dropped his hands and was no longer defending himself. I was on autopilot.

Kata teaches you to do moves in the same way shadow sparring does. You do the kata so many times you can't tell what was a preset combo and which ones are spontaneous because they all come out the same.

as for the sports stuff. I was just giving examples for Bri. The problem with all of them is Kata training is simply a static form of sparring. There really is no comparison to much of anything else because there are very few things in life as dynamic as self defense. And trying to associate it with sports is very difficult because self defense is not a sport. There are no rules, but there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. The trouble is sometimes you don't know which is which until it's over.

It is just a basic tool. And who ever spoke up earlier about learning more out of forms is right. You may do a kata a thousand times and then all of a sudden go, hey i never even thought of that.

When I started JKD, I didn't know any of the techniques and felt silly, but as we started sparring my instructor started asking me why I said I didn't know how to do this or that when I was doing them. sometimes they were moved contained in my kata's that I didn't know the significance of yet. Or had never used them in that way before. Yet when the opportunity arose I used them in ways I was not taught.

Just like they would show me a technique i didn't know and we'd practice that day. I would totally suck and look akward as all hell. Then I would wait a week and not even work on it. Come back and be able to use it effectively. Because my mind integrated it with what I already new.

[Guest]

Exessive Force - I am glad you borught up golf, basketball and football. You show me where they PRETEND to have a ball, and PRETEND to play with it, and then you will be showing us something akin to Kata.

There is a world of difference between practising a short combination and practising a full kata anyway. It's like training for sprinting and, because some people do short runs to help, then pointing to the marathon trainer and saying "see, he trains to sprint as well".

And rooke, yes, I have invested years into Karate, so I do feel qualified to say that 95% of what I learned (including 100% of the Kata) was sueless for the streets.

[James Bullock]

HOLLY long thread...batman...LOL

I agree with Bri, and ryan completely...

Using patterns as a way of doing anything is extremely counter productive. The mind and body will become complacent and in a rut if you will. Whether that pattern is a Karate Kata...or boxing combination (if you only use that combination to the exclusion of others).

Use what is appropriate to a given situation...and the only way to know what is appropriate is to place yourself in a multitude of situations and adapt accordingly.

Regards,

[eXcessiveForce]

Using a ball to do the drill is not playing the game Bri.

The difference is most sports require equipment to play them. But just because you have the equipment on doesn't mean you are playing.

Foot ball works sprints with pads on but they are not playing football. The passing drills are not playing football they are running complex passing routes to get their timing and such.


Kata does not require a ball it requires a different set of equipment.


There are not many things like Kata because there are not many things that are like martial arts or self defense.

In the US gunslingers would practice drawing their weapon over and over to increase the speed and proficiency of drawing the weapon. They reached incredible speeds doing this but they did not practice while standing in front of another person trying to shoot them.

Much of your life is a kata for most people. Most people have the same morning routine they do everyday. The more they do it the better they get at going through it. My Girlfriend knows the difference 4 minutes makes when trying to get to work.

I was working with a new salesman and he was learning his sales script. He tried practicing and re reading it over and over. We decided that Learning your tracks for sitting in front of clients are exactly like kata. You drill how you speak, the words you will use, how your voice sounds, your facial expresions and your body movement.

I once read a book about martial training the name of which escapes me but after going through it they said something to the effect all of life is Kata. I understand what they are talking about but someone else may not come to that understanding.

There was a story were kids drilled mathmatics in the united states. Most of the students were able to solve very complex math problems and went on to do extremely well on Advanced placement tests. They did not write down the numbers. They simply worked them in their head until the numbers just came to them. But when the worked other problems for real they used a pencil.

[Guest]

I was never meaning to imply that Kata needs a ball, but 'm sure you know that.

Football, Basketball and olf is all about manipulating the ball into a certain position. Fighting is about doing that to an opponent. Of course we can't really train by blasting peoples eyes and throats out, but we have to try and simulate it as close as is possible.

If you are training and have any access whatsoever to training partners and/or equipment, you are wasting your time doing technical work without using them.

Of course you may wish to improve fitness also, and incoir[orate running or weights etc, but for technical work you mus make it as realistic as you can.

Kata is the opposite of this. And people even do them again and again, and get tested on them, as if Kata is the end in itself.

Have you ever heard the phrase "losing sight of the squirrel"? Tha is what people have done when they do Kata.

But we are going around in circles. To each his own. If you want to practice Kata then go rigt ahead. I did it for years and feel like the time was wasted but, in fairness to you, there are those that disagree. But none of them seem to be in full contact or MMA competition (that I am aware of), and none of them in the Combatives world.

[eXcessiveForce]

I mostly agree with you Bri.

I think we should make everything as realistic as possible. and If you have training partners and equipment you should make full use of them.

I also know that many systems have gone as far as to eliminate sparring and just do Kata, I think this is wrong if they are working towards self defense.


I view Kata as a single tool much like doing pad work and such. It is not an end unto itself.

Do i prefer pad work for training than kata, most of the time. but I have had students that could not handle pad work when they came in. The would have killed themselves because they simply didn't know how to make their bodies move correctly. Kata helps them and allows them to move on to pad work and bag work and sparring.

Is Kata necessary is a totally different question. I look at it as a valid tool but not always necessary for athletic students.

My original point of all this is that Kata is not for self defense training in and of it self and wasn't intended to be. just like pad work by itself is not self defense training either.

[CHOKE UK]

Sorry but I am in the "katas crap" camp.

I believe it is just to pad out the lessons, when they've run out of things to do.
Also it's for people who dont really want to fight but just want to look like they are fighting, when infact they may as well be dancing.

It's merely a display !
perhaps originally for ceremonies ?

Similar to a guy who can juggle a football thousands of times and looks great at it, but is actually useless at playing football.

Looks can be deceptive.

All that glitters is not gold,
and kata is fools gold.

[rooke]

Its a body of knowledge

Katas are a body of knowledge. They hold ALL the important techniques to the system, as determined by the founder. From there, you extract the techniques and practice those individually.

Its like saying "The Dictionary is useless...I can't copy pages 1-5 to form an essay". True. But you might refer to it, to improve your essay on specific points. And you'll keep it around forever to ensure that if you ever encounter a NEW word, you can refer to the dictionary to see its application.

A kata is a body of knowledge. "Golfer's don't hit invisible balls"...no...but they practice their swing initially without a ball. Then they PRACTICE the swing with a ball. They don't just run out onto a golf course with no practice, start hitting the ball, and expect results. That's why there are driving ranges.

A kata is a single ASPECT of a system. And an important one at that. I keep HUNDREDS of reference books over a variety of subjects, so that when I NEED the knowledge, I can look it up. That's a kata.

Doing kata does NOT neglect sparring.

A Bri Thai...you were at a crappy school. There's a lot of good ones too, that do kata. Your analogy and mentality is somewhat akin to this: "I was robbed by some person, therefore they ALL suck". No. It was a single case, and is NOT indicative of the whole. Just like any person, business, or whatnot, there are good and bad. I've seen BAD kickboxing schools. I've seen bad JKD schools. I've seen bad Wing Chun schools. The list goes on. It does not invalidate each system.

There exist techniques which CANNOT be used at full speed. Period. Its too dangerous to a training partner. Those then, are practiced SLOWLY with a partner, or practiced SOLO in a kata to gain speed. If you strip those dangerous techniques OUT of ANY martial art, then you have to apply different techniques to handle a situation, and you end up with some art that looks like a combination of kickboxing and grappling...and there's a dozen of those sprouting up every day.

Rooke

[akja]

I just read the first 2 pages of this thread (all I had time for). I have to say that EXCESSIVE FORCE is the only one in here that understands martial arts!

The rest of you sound like backyard WWF rejects!

He told you plain and simple. If you don't get it. No problem. But you guys are way off and don't even know it.

If you guys are interested, I think Tank Abbot is accepting students or better yet butterbean!

[akja]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
Exessive Force - I am glad you borught up golf, basketball and football. You show me where they PRETEND to have a ball, and PRETEND to play with it, and then you will be showing us something akin to Kata.

There is a world of difference between practising a short combination and practising a full kata anyway. It's like training for sprinting and, because some people do short runs to help, then pointing to the marathon trainer and saying "see, he trains to sprint as well".

And rooke, yes, I have invested years into Karate, so I do feel qualified to say that 95% of what I learned (including 100% of the Kata) was sueless for the streets.

Shadowboxing and all bag work is "PRETENDING."

[James Bullock]

Originally posted by akja
I just read the first 2 pages of this thread (all I had time for). I have to say that EXCESSIVE FORCE is the only one in here that understands martial arts!

The rest of you sound like backyard WWF rejects!

He told you plain and simple. If you don't get it. No problem. But you guys are way off and don't even know it.

If you guys are interested, I think Tank Abbot is accepting students or better yet butterbean!

That is a large assumption don't you think...WWF rejects...and the rest of us do not understand the martial arts!!!! Very large assumption indeed...

Feel free to enlighten us at anytime as to what the true meaning of the martial arts are....oh...wise one!!!!

[akja]

Originally posted by James Bullock



That is a large assumption don't you think...WWF rejects...and the rest of us do not understand the martial arts!!!! Very large assumption indeed...

Feel free to enlighten us at anytime as to what the true meaning of the martial arts are....oh...wise one!!!!

Go back and read it!

Slight mistake, Excessive Force is the only one that appears to "understand" martial arts.

MMA did not come out of nowhere. Gung-Fu, Jujitsu and Karate are the forerunners to todays martial arts and they all have Kata. If Kata is not for you, no big thing. But the answers I read here today, just state "I don't understand!!"

Its a given the this is the MMA area but "I" didn't start the thread and "I" wasn't wining for 3 pages!

I just call it as I see it!