Is BJJ really Ju jitsu?

[Toudiyama]

on the video about Gracie in the UFC he states that ju jitsu doesn't have much strikes and is all takedowns and groundwork
Where did he get that from? it is nonsense, some ju jitsu schools pay more attension to that but certainly not all for instance the Shindo Yoshin Ryu ju jitsu school has besides Aikido like techniques also a lot of stricking, actually when Hironori Ohtsuka(founder of Wado Karate) who was a grandmaster in that style went to train with Gichin Funakoshi(founder of modern karate and shotokan karate) Funakoshi couldn't believe Ohtsuka had not done karate before

so saying that ju jitsu is 90 groundwork and throws is nonsense, the particular ju jitsu style the gracies were learning was but one style isn't representative for all of ju jitsu
same holds true for most arts with a lot of styles(indonesian pentjak silat for instance)

As a Martial Artist Gracie is great, as a historian for MA he sucks

[Lost Ronin]

Well, I firstly I think that Gracie was talking about his family's
particular style of Ju jitsu. Secondly, he is partially right. Historically, Ju jitsu was mostly throws, jointlocks and grappling. Ground work was not really emphasized though. Ju jitsu was developed by the Samurai to fight against warriors with armor on. If a guy is wearing armor, punching or kicking him isn't gonna have a good effect, so the Samurai would focus on attacks that could be used against someone attired in bamboo and leather. Throws, jointlocks and grappling became the primary focus of Ju jitsu, because they were effective regardless of what the enemy was wearing. Later on, strikes were added to ju-jitsu, making it a more complete system. But, the emphasis on grappling and ground work was lost, that is why the gracies say that the Japanese forgot their own style, in a way they did. So Gracie was not completely correct but not wrong.

[Toudiyama]

but from the heian period thing were different, from then on ju jitsu wasn't only for the battlefield anymore and became strikes effective As you said goundwork wasn't usefull so a style that emphesizes groundwork also lost it's tradition, if someone lost it's tradition it's the brazilians because they have a unique brazilian martial art

How can you say thay the japanese lost something if you only use your own style as reference

[Great Sage]

I agree... It's naive for Gracie to say that the Japanese forgot their own style, for as we all know, the martial arts is constantly changing (whether in techniques or principle) to its environment and time.

While the samarai still wore armor, strikes weren't as necessary. In later years, imperial gaurds wore lighter garments and strikes were more prevalent... This DOES NOT mean that they simply forgot how to fight grapple... It was modification.

[Hakoko]

Actually, I believe the Gracie's learned Newaza from Judo. Maeda was a Judo man, and thus taught Carlos Judo. Eventually, I believe the Gracie's moved more toward the newaza aspect of Judo. Jiu-jitsu was the name they chose to represent what they learned. At least that's my recollection of it.

[crazyjoe380]

jiu jitsu is mostly locks, chokes and throws...


ryu's like to mix karate in thier jujitsu like kempo.. but like gracie ..they mix it with boxing, and muay thai.. it's just how you look at it and where or who you train with..

the gracie style is for a street fight..but you train hard, you'll get in real good shape, you'll have a great time. it will condition you real well.. but it's not for mulitple attacks..

the japan style is for defense against the streets.. they have locks and chokes standing up.. they will teach muli fighting techniques...

if you go to a school for bjj they will teach you ground work and prep for tournaments..

the ryu will teach you strictly street shit and kill tactics.. but it takes forever to learn and it's so damn boring when your a beginner.. .. you have old men who think they can take you cause they act so humble but they do have skills don't get me wrong.. what i've seen .. for example if you grab someones wrist.. and you rotate it clock wise they attacker wont be able to hold on, it's a principle and it's proven.. the graice have the same priciple.. if they have you on the ground arms locked around your body.. if you rotate clock wise.. the other guy will let go cause it's just body mechancis... their both the same but diffrent methods.. but in the ryu stops.. . everyone is f.uckin fat as hell.. there is almost no action.. they train twice and maybe once on a saturday.. but i't still hardcore.. i aint downing it.. it's pretty tight..

see it's how you incorp the style.. gracie is good for both if you just break the rules.. go for the nuts.. the eyes, the throat..

martial arts is basic common sense..

both bjj and traditional have their ups and downs... if you take both... i feel sorry for your opponent on the street.. straight up..

[MindFighter]

Gracie

Actually, BJJ is a modified form of jiu-jitsu.
it was developed and adapted by Helio Gracie Sr. who designed it's overall fighting approach and main techniques, and spread this approach.

Nobody owns jiu-jitsu.
All the principles of leverage, locks, strikes, etc belongs to jiu-jitsu, the genesis of all fighting styles. What happens is that some people are more confortable or want to concentrate in some techniques, because these techniques are more suitable in certain situations, so they call it "my style" jiu-jitsu, just like ford calls an automobile a Ford one, ferrari calls it a ferrari one, and so, but in essence, an automobile is an automobile.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Not to rain on the Pride Parade here, but does anyone have any references to back up their 'facts'?

[swan104]

I believe Helio Gracie said in an interview that he trains in Jiu-Jitsu. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is his and his family's interpretation of the art, and the name was used for marketing and promotional purposes.


Steven

[Szczepankiewicz]

BJJ is too weak to be real Jiu-Jitsu.

[Toudiyama]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Not to rain on the Pride Parade here, but does anyone have any references to back up their 'facts'?

the fact I stated about Wado karate and shindo(shinto) yoshin ryu ju jitsu can be found in history part of wado books

but how does the Gracie family proof their facts?
If you do a search of the grandmaster who was Helio's teacher then you will only find BJJ pages, no mention about him otherwise

Seeing that Helio is the only source of information about this, I could just as easy claim Helio was never thaught the complete system of ju jitsu because of which they think there are almost no strikes or kicks in ju jitsu in general, but I won't
I can only state what I already did and that different ryu stressed different techniques
There is no One style of jujitsu as there is one Kendo or one Judo
before the 20th century there were sveral different ryu some of which still excist, but when Judo was instroduced as a new ju jitsu style it took out all atemi and this was later used as a base for modern ju jitsu and nihon ju jitsu
If ju jitsu didn't have atemis at the time judo was introduced and stressed the same things as judo does, what made judo so much better that they could defeat the other ju jitsu schools?

In the beginning jistu was the mold for other arts later on the other arts were needed so jitsu could be re-created in it's full splendor
kendo did something like it, it took techniques and kata from many ken jitsu ryu oh and so did iaido(sword pulling art)

I ask myself one thing, why did Gracie start his own style, what was wrong with what he learned from his master?
You don't start your own style just to open a school or because you disagree with how bussiness is run for the latter you start a new organisation, you start a new style because you think you have a better way of fighting

[Cain]

hey

Carlson and Helio was considered jiu Jitsu masters, they adapted their techniques with streetfights and challengefights, but after helio beat the first jj-master from the east, he was considered the first western Jiu jitsu master! and if you see his fight-record, he is named as a jiu jitsu practitioner in many of the cases. But ofcourse, if you call a tree a tree or a bush is not the point is it, the point is that we all train what we like and get better at it, and then we go to walhalla and fight:P

[kungfupanda]

BJJ is to Jujitsu what Aikido is to Daito-Ryu. The Gracies took away the strikes, breaks, and nerve tachniques and adapted it so that, in the words of Helio and Royce, "you can beat an opponent without actually hurting him."

[Szczepankiewicz]

what made judo so much better that they could defeat the other ju jitsu schools?

Perhaps it was that during the competition Kano Sensei used to prove the validity of Judo was a competition where Judoka and Jiu-jitsu players compteted under JUDO rules??

Wassupwitdat?

Also, the genius of Kano was full contact grappling randori. Or so I have read.

Spanky

[Temujin]

boxing

Wasn't Carlos Gracie a pro boxer before doing JJ with Maeda? I posted this before but the transition from boxing to MMA fighters seemed a natural turn of events for the family to follow as stepping into a ring to fight was natural for them. Pretty cool.