Muay thai, or BJJ?

[JaredExtreme]

Most schools have black belts teaching schools. GENERALLY the breakdown is like this:

Blue Belt 1-2 years
Purple belt another 2-3 years
Brown another 2-3 years
Black only if you're VERY qualified.

So yes, purple belts know a lot about BJJ, but black belts know a helluva lot more. Belt rank alone doesn't tell you about how well someone teaches, so go look at BOTH schools before you fork over any cash.

[NickJ5919]

His rank is 3rd, whats that mean?

http://www.bjj.org/academies/alonso.html

[Bounce]

Apples and oranges

I agree with Old Fat Bastard's reply below.

My first day in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was fantastic. I learned the basics from day one and I've used them ever since.

I even competed 5 weeks later.

90% of all fights end up on the ground. When you get into a fight, your not going to have gloves on. Either you knock him down, or he knocks you down. Then the game begins. I've never seen a street fight where to guys go toe to toe like a boxing match until someone gets KO'd. It will always go to the ground.

You should still know how to to break a guys nose with a quick jab or cross, but you will be most succesful against guys of any size once you get them on the ground. You take away their advantage of weight.

Eat right, train hard, and open a can of woop ass on those damn bullies.

[CHOKE UK]

Muay Thai or bjja ?

It's a bit like saying,

Whats the most important part of a car?

The engine or the wheels ?

..........You need "BOTH".

If you want to have realistic "fighting" ability.

Depends what your aim is?

Both are very effective but in very different ways!

But you have narrowed it down to TWO GOOD CHOICES,
"good work, you have chosen wisely my son"

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I want to add something constructive here, but first I have to make a small comment to Bounce. Bounce: I agree with your response except: I am not a bastard.

Muay Thai is excellent for stand-up self-defense, sport, and conditioning. Certainly one of the best styles and training methodologies for those objectives.

But every style has its flaws. Certainly the flaws of traditional Karate and even BJJ have been discussed ad nauseum in this and other fourms. Muay Thai has been criticized as a style for not having a ground game, but it is a stand-up sport after all.

Another important concern when evaluating any style for self defense is training with safety equipment. Muay Thai is a superior style because a large % of training time is spent sparring. But, that sparring is done with large, heavy boxing gloves. There are at some big difference between boxing glove and bare-knuckle fighting. And some serious implications in self-defense applications.

1) Blocking. Boxing gloves make it easier to block. Boxing-gloved punches are easier to block. Think of this analogy. A friend throws a basketball at your face from about six-feet away, you are wearing two baseball catchers mitts. Is the basketball going to hit you in the face? Probably not. The same friend throws a baseball at your face, you do not have baseball gloves on. Is the baseball going to hit you in the face. Very possibly. This is the same difference as two people wearing boxing gloves vs two people going bare-knuckle. My point about gloves are that they can be a crutch in blocking. It is much harder to block in a bare-knuckle fight and Muay Thai training does not focus on training for this.

2) Striking. Back to the basketball, baseball analogy. Which one is going to hurt worse? The baseball of course. It is harder and has a smaller focus area--the power behind the throw will impact a smaller area. A boxing glove is a big pad softening the blow of a punch. That is the main reason that striking arts require gloves for sparring. Bare-knuckles hurt! That's why bare-knuckle and NHB competition is not allowed in so many places.

3) Hand protection and injury. Back to the basketball/baseball analogy again. Why do baseball catchers wear heavily padded gloves? So they don't break their hands when they catch a pitch. If a bare-knuckle punch is strong enough to break a nose or a jaw, then it is strong enough to break a hand. When Karate people and other bare-knuckle traditionalists block a punch, they do not block with their hands--they use their arms. This is so they don't break their hands blocking. Similarly, when throwing a punch, it is pretty easy to break your hand. Traditionalists know to hit with only the two big knuckles. However, if you always train with 16oz gloves and/or hand wrap, you don't worry about that. I've seen a lot of glove-sparring champions come back with broken hands after a bar fight.

Sorry for the ramble, but I think it is relevant to discuss safety equipment implications when evaluating any style and its training method.

[Crouchtig]

what if you cant have both the engine and the wheels?

which is better?

i think that was what he was asking

[CHOKE UK]

couchtig,

yes I see your point,

And back to my answer !

To drive a car,
whats most important,
wheels or engine !

To be a competent allround fighter you need to be able to fight in the two main scenarios.

UP and DOWN !

If you chose one, then you may only half half the solution.

Unless it's an exceptional class, with an exceptional instructor, who has cross-trained.

Another consideration is that it depends on the actual classes.

I have seen so called bjja classes,
run like traditional jui jitsu classes,
totally inadequate !

So it depends on several factors,
Also personal suitability to the art.

I have been to many classes,
of different arts,
and the "realistic ones"
kickboxing/muay thai/ gracie jui jitsu etc
Have had very high drop-out rates,
much higher than the karate/kung fu type of classes.

This is no coincidence,
they are simply much "HARDER" !!!!

So one may suit you more than another !

But remember you may end up with a great V8 engine,
but "bricks for wheels" !!!!!!

[Guest]

"90% of all fights end up on the ground."

Not true in my experience, though many do. I certainly recommend that grappling is learnt, but not to the overtly complicated extent that much BJJ and Judo perform.

To me there is an optimum level, and this is where you can escape bad positions and get yourself in good positions. From there basic striking and gouging is far better to finish a fight than a fancy submission. Especially the submissions where you lose the dominant position if he escapes.

[CHOKE UK]

Yepp, I'd go along with most of that BRA-TIE !

[Crouchtig]

bri thai has a point

you can punch someone until they are mashed up and then you can walk away

if you get someone in a submission then what are you supposed to do?

continue the hold to its maximum level to seriously injure your opponent?

get them to "submit". what if they just attack you again when you let them go?

cause some damage then let go?

keep them in the hold until someone arrives to help you (like anyones ever going to do that)?

with striking you just keep hitting till youve won. submission holds are more complicated

[Toudiyama]

Most submission holds are only that in a match, in real life they are jointbreakers or a way to make the opponent unconsious
For this it is the same as with any martial art, useless if you do not adapt it to the streets
A well trained grabler that can adapt, can takedown and break the arm and then ge up again in a few seconds against an unskilled attacker and this way maybe even be able to hold or defeat multiple attackers though you have to be fast and intended on breaking the arm in the first place

btw pounding someones skull with your bare knukles won't do your hand any good either
Boxing gloves weren't introduced to protect the fighters but to be able to hit harder, before the introduvtion fights lasted more then 50 rounds and fighter would die of exchaustion rather than being beat to death (see http://www.dolfzine.com/page545.htm )

[Guest]

I train Combatives, and don't use my bare knuckles.

[Bounce]

Pain is the equalizer

Took the words out of my mouth Toudiyama.

And: Sorry to Old Fat Kinpoka, I couldn't remember the screename and reverted to Austin Powers.

[Crouchtig]

50 rounds?

torture

my idea for a UFC type sport:

two OR MORE people in a ring fighting (you could have teams)
but with objects in the ring (tables chairs, walls, baseball bats)
no time limit
fight until one of the fighters is NEARLY dead (youd need some kind of sensors on them or something)
then use futuristc technology to heal them again (its in the future, bri thai is dead)
continuous fights lasting for days. people trying to kill each other with weapons and objects. the dying are rescued by flying robots and sent back in once recovered.

youd get some parent complaining about that (especaily when you show it during childrens TV time)

hhahahahahahaha (lol)

[CHOKE UK]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toudiyama
[B]Most submission holds are only that in a match, in real life they are jointbreakers or a way to make the opponent unconsious



Toudiyama is quite correct !

If you arm bar someone in a real fight and then let him go,
chances are he will think he has escaped of his own accord and attack you again.

Solution = you dont let go !

If you have ever applied an arm bar,
then you should know how to adapt it to a real life situation,
and be able to complete-the-hyperextention !
There is a slight alteration.

Similarly with a choke.
Dont stop til he snores zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

But there are a number of equally important,
techniques that are not taught in bjja,
that are very important in a real fight !

Which are very difficult to train and use without risking serious damage.