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**Lizard** · 05-21-2003, 05:52 AM

Thats a major difference between UFC and real life - other people joining in. I was worried about not knowing any ground-fighting but perhaps, as you say, it's more important to avoid going to the ground in the first place. I know some sweeps, I'll try to find some useful ways to avoid takedowns, I believe knees and downward elbows are useful for this purpose.

**Guest** · 05-21-2003, 07:04 AM

I think you have it the worng way around. The most important thing to know in groundfighting is the escapes. Relying on avoiding being taken down is great, until you get taken down. Same as for relying on what to do if you happen to land on top.

Train for the worst case scenario. Don't train to avoid it, as Murphy's law says you won't.

**Tom Yum** · 05-21-2003, 09:00 AM

One's opinion of ground fighting will depend on which arts you have studied. BJJ will teach you how to survive if you are taken to the ground; BJJ techniques are effective, even against larger opponents who use strength as long as your skills are developed. Judo and wrestling (Free style, Sambo, Shuai Jiao etc.) all have well developed ground fighting techniques. Other arts like hapkido and chin na teach ground fighting as well, but just long enough to get back on your feet.

My opinion would be to use ground fighting if someone tackled me to the ground or knocked me down and tried to mount me. Otherwise, I would prefer to use palm strikes, head butting, elbows, knees and low kicks.

**Lizard** · 05-21-2003, 09:39 AM

BBJ is groundfighting. Judo is Ground-wrestling. There is a big difference. In Judo you are supposed to pin your opponent for 30 seconds or something, there are no punches or kicks and not many submissions.

**Great Sage** · 05-21-2003, 09:54 AM

Re: Made me think....

Originally posted by Bau13
The thread about 80% of fights going to the ground....
It seems a majority of people say "train on the ground anyways... just so you have an idea if you get there.."

This is an admission that fights will generally end up on the ground at some point or another, unless you can surmount serious damage to your adversary.

Someone who’s intent on taking you down will eventually succeed unless you knock him out first.

Originally posted by Bau13
But what difference will that really make? (I assume most grappling classes people go to are strictly grappling techniques only?-correct me if I'm wrong!!)
I dont care how many sweeps and submissions you know... question is...

will you be able to use them if someone is repeatedly pummelling his fists down on your face? etc etc...

The whole point of grappling is to prevent injury to you, while breaking down your opponent. Try throwing punches while mounted with grapes in... You’ll notice that your punches have little impact, if any. Also, from a closed guard, you’ll notice the same. The more a person struggles within submissive positions, the more they wear themselves out. That is, unless they know what they’re doing.

Originally posted by Bau13
I wouldn't want to go to the ground at all in a street fight cos things just get really ugly from there... his friends can throw a boot party for you etc...

If I do end up there ... I'd want to get up real fast!
Worst thing you could do is think that you can groundfight /submit him.. whatever the position youre in .. your vision/ awareness and movement is limited if youre on the ground... cant reeeeallly see whats around you , cant move away fast enough from other possible attackers etc... Try and get back on your feet ASAP so you can run if you need to !!

Well... This point has been used so many times against grappling without everlooking the obvious... Against multiple attackers, it’s a no win situation whether you’re on the ground or not — You’re gonna end up there anyway if they have you cornered.

Let’s be realistic, against two guys you may have a chance at stand-up, but anymore than two and you’re best bet is to run like the wind. Still, handling two guys is really pushing it.

Originally posted by Bau13
I think the important things to train for street ground defence are..

take down defence - why let the fight go there in the first place?

If you’re getting plummelled on your feet, and you know your opponent can’t do much on the ground... Take him there... It’s all about evaluating your situation. There’s a time for everything.

Originally posted by Bau13
sweeps ( and if possible train with some striking !) - you DO NOT want to be on the bottom..

Proper effective strikes from top position - if you do end up on top.. might as well throw in some GOOD shots!

You are on the bottom by default... And while you’re there, you may as well know how to handle your situation. It’s wishful thinking to believe that you will never end up on the bottom.

Originally posted by Bau13
And if you insist on staying on top( in most cases I would like to get back on my feet already).. work on your base in positions like mount and knee on stomach... so you can STAY on top

You'd also want to train getting up from the ground quickly and properly..you know, so youre in a good position to defend yourself..

I wish all fights could be fair .... one on one.. nobody else joins in so we can actually use the techniques we work so hard on...

too bad it aint like that....

Once you get up, you should run... There’s no shame in avoiding an ugly confrontation. You could lose an eye, an ear or even a leg.

**Ryu (JKD?)** · 05-21-2003, 11:29 AM

"Well... This point has been used so many times against grappling without everlooking the obvious... Against multiple attackers, it’s a no win situation whether you’re on the ground or not — You’re gonna end up there anyway if they have you cornered. "

While I somewhat agree with this, and have been in a multiple opponent situation where both stand up and grappling did occur, I'd like to say that this is not necessarily the case.

The problem I see with this whole argument is that people (grappers and stand up fighters alike) talk about BEATING multiple opponents.

When you're fighting more than one person, it turns into an escape mission. You should be looking for ways to escape. Your chances of escaping a mass attack are GREATLY increased if you are on your feet. Grappling with multiple opponents leaves almost 0% chance of escape unless really really lucky.

So the ONLY reason why "stand up" fighting has an edge on grappling in a mass attack is simply because on your feet you have more chance to escape, and on the ground you don't.

But I do agree that if you are trying to knock everyone out with your kicks and punches........to the ground you're probably gonna go.

Ryu

**Lost Ronin** · 05-21-2003, 09:01 PM

Ryu has a made a good point. Grappling is nothing more than just an aspect of fighting, a very important part of combat. I'm not gonna lie, I love to grapple. I wrestled for a while in high school, I'm studying BJJ, and I'm also looking forward to picking up Sambo. But I would never take it down to the ground in a street fight unless there was some sort of tactical benefit from it. But, I can't help but smile when people say that grappling is not the best option for self defense (that I agree with) so they are just gonna focus on takedown defense. The only way to be able to defend from grappling is to be a good grappler! No ands, ifs, or buts, if you can't grapple well then you cannot defend from a grappler. When I was taking Karate, I thought that grapplers didn't have nothing no me, my good friend was a wrestler in high school and he invited me to practice. I went over, confident in my ability, I am a pretty good striker, and I thought that that alone would guarantee me victory in a fight. Within 15 seconds he has me on the mat, crying uncle and praying to God that I would regain full use of my left arm (half nelsons hurt), that was it, it was a cataclysmic event for me, I knew that I had to learn to grapple. My point is, grappling is necessary for self defense, it's not the best option for self defense but you have to learn to do it. I tell people that ask me about the effectiveness of grappling in self defense that I learned to grapple so I could avoid grappling! That's the kind of mentality you have to acquire when it comes to self defense. If I ever end up on my back during a fight, I'm gonna think " I'm here because I have to be here, let me make this as short and sweet as possible". Grappling is not the kind of thing that you can work your way around, you either learn to do it and focus on the right tactics, or you pay the price.

**Ice Phoenix** · 05-22-2003, 08:26 AM

Why do people still argue this shit? Striking, clinch, & ground are all important. Most BJJ and grappling schools train strikes to some extent. Some very little, some quite a lot.

**doubleouch** · 05-22-2003, 01:30 PM

Pheonix and Ronin have it right. If you don't know how to grapple at least a little you won't be able to defend it. It is only a part of the total package. I don't think anyone here thinks it is the only answer.

**Bau13** · 05-22-2003, 02:48 PM

well I aint knocking the art .... I love it!

BUt I did start this thread cos there are loads of guys I know who DO think grappling is the only answer ...

Was tryin to clear things up....

please dont think that omoplata you learnt will work in a bar fight....

you know??

**Szczepankiewicz** · 05-22-2003, 02:55 PM

In his book Real Fighting, Peyton Quinn describes this scenario in great detail. He has worked with Rorian Gracie and has seen many of the Gracie Challenge tapes that detail the superiority of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in fights.

However, as he goes on to explain, in the 'real world' what you see is not a 'fight'. So what works in a fight or what does not work in a fight is a moot point.

I highly encourage you to read this chapter in his book, if not the whole book itself. It's easy to find, just look for the chapter on the Gracies.

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