Does anyone have any cheese?

[judo guy]

To go along with all the whines on this forum? Geez, I can't believe how upset Gore supporters are. They are sounding eerily reminiscent of Republicans who whined about Perot costing Bush and Dole their respective elections. Tough baby. That's the way it goes.

Direct election of the President is the dumbest idea I have ever heard of. Earth to the rest of you. We are a republic, not a democracy. The electoral college preserves that principle far better than direct election of the Presidential candidate. Direct election invites fraud. It also can put too much power into a small segment of the population. Take for example NYC. NYC and the boroughs gave Gore around 1.4 million more votes than Bush. Bush could have conceivably won every other single state by 25,000 votes and still have lost the election. How is that representative of all the people? It isn't. The electoral college ensures that candidates can't rule without the consensus of broad segments of the population. Even as close as this election is Bush won 29 of the 50 states.

Gore even understands why the electoral college is necessary for God's sake.

Now it is evident that this country creeps closer and closer to majoritarianism every day. I just hope I'm dead when the United States becomes a country where the majority can impose their will on the minority. It will be the beginning of the downfall of this nation. The principles that have guided this nation for 225 years have served it well.

Now suck it up and go on with life.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Rats, I thought this was gonna be a cheese thread...

[EJ]

Dammit... I thought it was a "porn" thread!!!

[judo guy]

EJ,

Check your e-mail.

[EJ]

Thank you, JG!!! I needed that... errr... those!!!

[Mickey Finn]

Likewise Judo. I have drunk from the pure waters. Your aura is magnificent. I swear one of those blondes cut my hair today. How do you ask a girl you just met if she poses for porno?

[judo guy]

EJ and Mickey,

You guys have gotten the good and the ugly. Now check your e-mails for the BAD!

[BIG BIRD]

Mr. Judo Guy,the man I admire above all forum members please add me to your porn list. I could use some to bring sunshine to my rainy NW days. bigbird@fightlink.com . Thank you and god bless.

[SweepEm]

You want to talk about cheese?

Lte's see, there is:
Abbaye de Belloc, Abbaye du Mont des Cats, Abertam, Abondance, Ackawi, Acorn, Adelost, Affidelice au Chablis
Afuega'l Pitu, Airag, Airedale, Aisy Cendre, Allgauer Emmentaler, Alverca, Ambert, American Cheese, Ami du Chambertin, Anejo Enchilado, Anneau du Vic-Bilh,
Anthoriro, Appenzell, Aragon, Ardi Gasna, Ardrahan,
Armenian String, Aromes au Gene de Marc, Asadero, Asiago,
Aubisque Pyrenees, Autun, Avaxtskyr

and these are just the cheeses that start with an "A"

[Ronin]

Judo Guy:

Of all the dispiriting things that have happened to me this year, the most dispiriting of all is that I agree with you on a political topic.

May it never happen again.

Good to see you posting, BTW.

[Atomic]

The electoral college is an antiquated piece of crap, regardless of what candidate you vote for. When the founding fathers instituted it, they weren't completely sure of it and did it for a good reason. The problem is, times have changed and the college is not as useful as it used to be and doesn't serve it's original purpose (which was keeping regional candidates from taking over the presidency).

Now, some might argue that the founding fathers' plan shouldn't be messed with, but if they were alive, they'd probably admit the wrongs of that and some of their other ideas--such as, women couldn't vote, blacks were slaves, and they wouldn't even let the people elect the senate (which was appointed). I don't know about you guys, but I don't necessarily trust guys that have been dead for a couple hundred years.

So, how does direct election invite voter fraud? We've had that in the electoral college already (remember the 60's in IL, where the motto was, "Vote early and vote often?"

I'd suggest proportional voting (like the system used in Nebraska and Maine) may be a viable option.

Atomic

[Ronin]

Atomic:

I just think we are a little over-eager to tinker with something that has stood up to two centuries of voters.

You never appreciate what you have, until it's either gone or f*cked beyond recognition.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Let me tell you why the electoral college sucks. If cand#1 wins a state against cand#2 by a few thousand votes, it simply awards the whole state to that candidate, simply ignoring the voters that supported cand#2 in that state. Whether every single person in a state votes for one person or if that one person wins a narrow 51% of a state's vote makes no difference in this process. Is that right? This is not democracy this is bs. If I lived in Texas, I might as well not vote, huh? The current voting system usually does not cause problems because the popular vote is usually abided by. But now, for the second time in history, the election is so close and justice will not happen if the person that got fewer votes wins the presidency.

[judo guy]

Hi Atomic,

A couple of points.

First of all, the candidates conducted their campaigns based on the fact that it was the electoral college that decided the election. The argument can be made and justifiably that IF the election was decided by direct vote that George Bush would have spent more time trying to gather votes in NY, CA, and TX and might have closed Gore's lead in those states to where he would have won the popular vote. Both candidates waged their campaign based on the electoral college REGARDLESS of the popular vote. You cannot extrapolate that under a direct election of the president that Gore would have won. You have zero evidence for it.

Secondly, it is the electoral college that ensures that the President must build a consensus among constituents of various states and interests in order to govern. Under a direct election of the President conceivably a president could be elected with absolutely no nationwide support and overwhelming support from one or two areas of the country. Take away NYC and the boroughs Gore loses the popular vote by 1.2 million people. Should NYC decide the fate of the entire nation? I don't think so. People might say that Florida is deciding the election this year. Not true. Bush had to gather support in 29 other states to get to this point. Florida is only one piece of the puzzle.

Take a look at the electoral map. Bush has the support of 3/5ths of the states. Clearly the United States is not as homogenous as people who call for the direct election of candidates claim it is. The electoral college ensures that candidates have to take into consideration the needs of those in smaller states as well as the larger states.

I'm not against altering the electoral college to make it more equitable. I believe that California should be split up into 3 different electoral regions. Texas should be 2 and NY should be 2. I think because these states are so big in area and population that they wield more power than they should and also it makes it more equitable for the citizenry to make their vote "count" for the lack of a better word.

You make the case for electoral voting when you bring up the fraud in Chicago. Chicago fraud could only affect the state of Illinois' electoral vote. But under a direct election of the President by the citizenry, that fraud has much greater ramifications. Voter fraud is a much more powerful weapon.

Lastly, as I stated earlier this nation was founded as a republic and not a democracy. For good reason. True democracy invites tyranny. When the majority can impose their will on the minority all freedoms melt away. Plato was a pretty smart guy. I'll go with him on this form of government. Being biased that way, I'm pretty much opposed to any system that gives more power to majoritarians. No doubt the founding fathers of this country felt the same way.



[Edited by judo guy on 11-08-2000 at 11:32 PM]

[EJ]

Holy mutha-f*cka JG...

That last email was something I could have lived my WHOLE LIFE without seeing and been all the better for it.