Do you live to love or love to fight?

[krys]

Well in most cases if there is an established US base the rebels are against it, so just why would people in support of the base fund the rebels? But i think i get what you're saying. But typically even though the established government may say they dont like us they do like our bases. Look at Germany they hate us, but when we suggested removing the bases there (becase the cold war is over) they had a fit.

Look at Germany they hate us

German peoples don't hate americans, just the bases.....
And the germans have more negociating power than thirld world countries.....

Actually in the Philippines there are different rebels many of them just bandits who only fight for money, well more exactly the low rank soldiers starve and die in the mountain for their cause and the leaders live in luxury in Manila ........ given the right amount these leaders would officially disaprove the bases but take no action against them...

There is the so called infamous Abbu Sayaff terrorist group... it is very likely that they were initially funded by the CIA to split the rebel muslim rebel movement in the south....
.... one very serious source told me the Abbu Sayaf bandits attacked the Ipil town in 1995 (plundering banks) because they did not get their paycheck from the CIA...
This may be questionable but lots of things that happened recently point in that direction....

These bandits may have an anti american-western-filipino government discourse but they are just disguised mercenaries...

Actually their terrorist activities in the south more or less made acceptable the return of american troops in the country to "officially" train the filipino army in antiterorist warfare and to bring humanitarian aid... US engineers constructed roads, airports, and warves...... in a strategically important area of the South China sea.....

[jubaji]

my fiance is japanese .

Well, then you don't have to get her anything on Valentine's Day!

[krys]

I don't really know much about the bases in Germany.... I was just speaking of the feelings of the peoples.....

T

I am pretty sure that we had removed our bases from there after some volcano exploded, and to my memory this was before 1995. So why the hell would anybody be on our payroll after the bases were gone. Now we are back again because of Abu Sayaf and the war on terrorism.

Yes the bases were closed in 1991..... but there is the vfa (visisting forces agreement) that allows training of american troops on filipino soil.....

It is always usefull to have some to flex muscles in a strategically important area....

What follows comes from my discussion with some peoples in Mindanao.... I don't know wether what they said is true or not.... according to them the abbu sayyaf was created by the CIA for two reasons: draw popular muslim support from the secesionist MNLF group (many filipinos agree with this) and to create havoc in northern Malaysia and Indonesia in case things go wrong there (less known by peoples)......

There are huge oil-gas reserves in the area and Indonesia is the largest muslim country of the world.... actually washington is watching carefully how things developp in Indonesia with this war on terror and bases in the Philippines would be very helpfull in case of a conflict there (check the net if you don't believe what I say).... Besides the area is also of interest because of the Taiwan situation and there is a lot of maritime traffic going on in the sea there, among other oil supply to allies Japan and Taiwan.........Curiously the coming military exercises will take place in Palawan close to the spratleys islands (filipino territory) that China claims and were China started to build small bases.......

Oh i see so its just one huge conspiracy that only a few people know about.

http://www.bulatlat.com/archive/016abu_us.htm

http://justpeace.net.ph/updates/statement/st2001_0827_01.htm

.......
Well, this military claim is a blatant lie. Because there is at least one outstanding case of a terrorist with possible ties to the Abu Sayyaf that tried to bomb Davao in the past---May last year, in fact. And this terrorist is Michael Terrence Meiring of the CIA.

Davao Mayor Rodrigo Duterte should know him. Agents from the Unisted States National Security Council (NSC) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) spat on his face and subverted his authority when they whisked Meiring out of a Davao hospital---freshly injured from an inadvertent blast of explosives in his possession---straight to a helicopter provided by the US embassy to deny the feisty mayor the biggest bust of his career.

Fortunately, that didn’t stop Davao City authorities from proceeding with the criminal inquiry. And in a clear statement of independence and high regard for public safety, Davao City Prosecutor Raul Bendico announced last September 2002 the city’s findings that Meiring was indeed a terrorist.

But until now, Meiring remains unaccountable. And his non-prosecution has left, and still leaves, undisrupted the CIA-Abu Sayyaf terrorist network he kept here in the Philippines, all the way up to the March 4 bombing.

And from the Mindanao institue of journalism a very interesting article:

http://www.mindanaw.com/2000/10/02sayyaf.html

[krys]

Well, then you don't have to get her anything on Valentine's Day!

Exactly! One of the many advantages of having a japanese gf...

[jubaji]

Exactly! One of the many advantages of having a japanese gf...

She should have gotten chocolate for you on Valentine's Day.



But don't forget March 14th!

[adacas]

you know what is funny is that a lot of american enemies were once allies in some form or another. We either trained them or gave them a ton of cash. Nazi's were given huge amounts of cash from american corps, we gave money, food, and other stuff to communist russia, oil and money to emperial japan, training and money to osama bin laden, helicopters and plenty of time to saddam. I just think its kind of funny how that works out.

[Maxetai]

Yes it is wierd how it works out, but hey it isnt a perferct world.

Wake up and "smell the coffee" dude, you are "killing and getting killed" for a few others to cash in.
Click here, read the headlines and you might learn something: http://www.davidicke.com/icke/headlines.shtml

[krys]

Here is more about the nazi connections of a successfull political familly :

http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

[QUOTE=HandtoHand] Well in the 90s with Clinton i dont think that he was too terridablly intrested in strategic muscle flexing. He was too busy with peacekeeping and interns.

Well i heard the real issuses in Somalia and Bosnia weren't purely humanitarian and peacekeeping was not the main concerns .....

True the phillipines are a stategic region which is why i dont think that we should have ever left in the first place.

Don't you think filipinos shouldn't have their say?

But to think that we funded terrorists just for the excuse to install bases is a big streach. Did we fund the Nazi's so that we could defeat them and then get bases close to russia, and so that we could play Blind Man's Bluff?

Two friends in french military told me those bases in Bosnia and central asia could be very usefull in case of tensions over the huge oil-gas fields in central asia......

Abu Sayaf has ties to Al Queda and that is why we are fighting them,

That is very doubtfull, the Abbu Sayyaf bandits don't know much about islam: they take drugs, drink alcohol, rape, even kidnap and behead fellow muslims....

Al Quaeda peoples are infamous terrorists but they try to keep an islamic image...
Saying that Abbu Sayyafs are linked to Al Quaeda is pure propaganda.....
Abbu Sayyafs are just bandits.....

These sites claim that the muhajedeen came back from Afghanastan and form the core consitituiency of Abu Sayaf. But we helped fighters who were fighting against the soviets, in Afghanastan, not in the Philipines, what they went off and did after wards is something called free will.

The Abbu Sayyaf was first founded by Mujaheedins and when the movement started they kept an islamic profile.... but the pro islamic leaders curiously got killed very quickly and other less religious figures took their place..


There are many things at stake in the area as you said, do you think the CIA wouldn't use it's connections with a group that could be of use?

Yes corruption runs rampid as far as the phillipino soldiers and police go, i've thought that for some time, because they got away too often too easily. But thats not us!!!

There are different kind of corruption...

Some bright young officers of the Philippino army get scholarships to study for MPAs, MBAs or further military instruction at top US institutions, this allows them to advance quickly in their career later and advance in the hierarchy.... they get grants, are frequently invited abroad, their children can study at US universities and so on.... filipinos have a concept called "debt of honour" that will move them to repay their debts...

Former president Ramos was a west point graduate as much of the military leaders top brass who are pushing for the return of american troops.....

What military claim, the war games. War games happen all the time, as far as this other stuff goes,

Yes but war games in combat zones? And now those war games close to the spratleys islands? China would actually like to control those islands for their economic ressources but also because their very important strategic location in case of an attack against Taiwan.....

Every time there are war games army engineers build facilities that could be used afterwards.... besides the population slowly gets used to the idea of an american presence.... permanent presence will get more acceptable.....

if it is true how come it hasnt been picked up by cnn and others who hate the CIA? Or are they in on it too?

Excellent question.... But do you think the medias are free in those times of trouble?
And I wouldn't say CNN is a reference for objective media

Other peoples too wonder why this hasn't been covered :

http://homepage.mac.com/kaaawa/iblog/C177199123/E1646433642/

This Meijering thing is true..... as well as the Schilling affair...
Ok look at this, may be conjecture but a lot of things are pointing in that direction.....
Imagine this:
the public opinion in the Philippines is against the return of american bases.... suddenly there is this highly organised kidnaping affair in Malaysia by the Abbu Sayyaf....

(the kidnaping in Sidapan was too well organised to be possibly planned by the stupid Abbu Sayyaf group....

the bandits behead hostages, and commit atrocities while the filipino military doesn't seem to be in control anymore... and what happens: the US army sends troops to help!

But there is another powerfull muslim rebel group in the area: the MILF.... unfavorable to American militatry presence in the area... and uncontroled...
while the (pro american) president goes to Washington to ask for more military aid bombings occur in the Davao area that are quickly blamed on the MILF.....
Pure coincidence at the same time a CIA linked american called Meijering has one case of explosives stored in his (5*) hotel room that explodes....
He is quicly moved out of the country by fbi and nsc agents before any serious inquiry takes place......

[krys]

She should have gotten chocolate for you on Valentine's Day.



But don't forget March 14th!

Ah... but unfortunately she was far away during Valentine's Day.... Thanks for reminding me I will buy some for the White Day when she'll be back.

[krys]

part one

Oh i see thats why Al Gore didnt mention it in his campaign...That why it is never mentioned by the mainstream media who hate bush. If this is at all credable CNN would be all over it. There are all kinds of republican wachjob websites claiming things that arent remotely true, and the same the the democrats but you have to distinguish.

I do not follow american elections.... but CNN isn't a model for independant information..
The website gave very precise information that should be easy to verify.....
and



On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)
..............
1. Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 248. The order was signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed October 20, 1942; F.R. Doc. 42-11568; Filed, November 6, 1942, 11:31 A.M.; 7 Fed. Reg. 9097 (Nov. 7, 1942). See also the New York City Directory of Directors (available at the Library of Congress). The volumes for the 1930s and 1940s list Prescott Bush as a director of Union Banking Corporation for the years 1934 through 1943.

2. Alien Property Custodian Vesting Order No. 259: Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation; Vesting Order No. 261: Holland-American Trading Corp.

3. Alien Property Custodian Vesting Order No. 370: Silesian-American Corp.

4. The New York Times on December 16, 1944, ran a five-paragraph page 25 article on actions of the New York State Banking Department. Only the last sentence refers to the Nazi bank, as follows: `` The Union Banking Corporation, 39 Broadway, New York, has received authority to change its principal place of business to 120 Broadway. ''

The Times omitted the fact that the Union Banking Corporation had been seized by the government for trading with the enemy, and even the fact that 120 Broadway was the address of the government's Alien Property Custodian.

5. Fritz Thyssen, I Paid Hitler, 1941, reprinted in (Port Washington, N.Y.: Kennikat Press, 1972), p. 133. Thyssen says his contributions began with 100,000 marks given in October 1923, for Hitler's attempted `` putsch '' against the constitutional government.

6. Confidential memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, to the U.S. Secretary of State, April 20, 1932, on microfilm in Confidential Reports of U.S. State Dept., 1930s, Germany, at major U.S. libraries.

7. Oct. 5, 1942, Memorandum to the Executive Committee of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in United States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to Vesting Order No. 248.

8. Elimination of German Resources for War: Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the Committee on Military Affairs, United States Senate, Seventy-Ninth Congress; Part 5, Testimony of [the United States] Treasury Department, July 2, 1945. P. 507: Table of Vereinigte Stahlwerke output, figures are percent of German total as of 1938; Thyssen organization including Union Banking Corporation pp. 727-31.

9. Robert Sobel, The Life and Times of Dillon Read (New York: Dutton-Penguin, 1991), pp. 92-111. The Dillon Read firm cooperated in the development of Sobel's book.

10. George Walker to Averell Harriman, Aug. 11, 1927, in the W. Averell Harriman papers at the Library of Congress (designated hereafter WAH papers).

11. `` Iaccarino '' to G. H. Walker, RCA Radiogram Sept. 12, 1927. The specific nature of their business with Mussolini is not explained in correspondence available for public access.

12. Andrew Boyle, Montagu Norman (London: Cassell, 1967).

Sir Henry Clay, Lord Norman (London, MacMillan & Co., 1957), pp. 18, 57, 70-71.

John A. Kouwenhouven, Partners in Banking ... Brown Brothers Harriman (Garden City: Doubleday & Co., 1969).

13. Coordination of much of the Hitler project took place at a single New York address. The Union Banking Corporation had been set up by George Walker at 39 Broadway. Management of the Hamburg-Amerika Line, carried out through Harriman's American Ship and Commerce Corp., was also set up by George Walker at 39 Broadway.

14. Interrogation of Fritz Thyssen, EF/Me/1 of Sept. 4, 1945 in U.S. Control Council records, photostat on page 167 in Anthony Sutton, An Introduction to The Order (Billings, Mt.: Liberty House Press, 1986).

15. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, by the Office of United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality, United States Government Printing Office, (Washington: 1948), pp. 1597, 1686.

16. `` Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation - [minutes of the] Meeting of Board of Directors, '' Oct. 31, 1930 (Harriman papers, Library of Congress), shows Averell Harriman as Chairman of the Board.

Prescott Bush to W.A. Harriman, Memorandum Dec. 19, 1930 on their Harriman Fifteen Corp.

Annual Report of United Konigs and Laura Steel and Iron Works for the year 1930 (Harriman papers, Library of Congress) lists `` Dr. Friedrich Flick ... Berlin '' and `` William Averell Harriman ... New York '' on the Board of Directors.

`` Harriman Fifteen Corporation Securities Position February 28, 1931, '' Harriman papers, Library of Congress. This report shows Harriman Fifteen Corporation holding 32,576 shares in Silesian Holding Co. V.T.C. worth (in scarce depression dollars) $1,628,800, just over half the value of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation's total holdings.

The New York City Directory of Directors volumes for the 1930s (available at the Library of Congress) show Prescott Sheldon Bush and W. Averell Harriman as the directors of Harriman Fifteen Corp.

`` Appointments, '' (three typed pages) marked `` Noted May 18 1931 W.A.H., '' (among the papers from Prescott Bush's New York Office of Brown Brothers Harriman, Harriman papers, Library of Congress), lists a meeting between Averell Harriman and Friedrich Flick in Berlin at 4:00 P.M., Wednesday April 22, 1931. This was followed immediately by a meeting with Wilhelm Cuno, chief executive of the Hamburg-Amerika Line.

The `` Report To the Stockholders of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, '' Oct. 19, 1933 (in the Harriman papers, Library of Congress) names G.H. Walker as president of the corporation. It shows the Harriman Fifteen Corporation's address as 1 Wall Street--the location of G.H. Walker and Co.

17. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1686.

18. Jim Flaherty (a BBH manager, Prescott Bush's employee), March 19, 1934 to W.A. Harriman.

`` Dear Averell:

In Roland's absence Pres[cott] thought it advisable for me to let you know that we received the following cable from [our European representative] Rossi dated March 17th [relating to conflict with the Polish government]....''

19. Harriman Fifteen Corporation notice to stockholders Jan. 7, 1935, under the name of George Walker, President.

20. Order No. 370: Silesian-American Corp. Executed Nov. 17, 1942. Signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian. F.R. Doc. 42-14183; Filed Dec. 31, 1942, 11:28 A.M.; 8 Fed. Reg. 33 (Jan. 1, 1943).
The order confiscated the Nazis' holdings of 98,000 shares of common and 50,000 shares of preferred stock in Silesian-American.
The Nazi parent company in Breslau, Germany wrote directly to Averell Harriman at 59 Wall St. on Aug. 5, 1940, with `` an invitation to take part in the regular meeting of the members of the Bergwerksgesellsc[h]aft Georg von Giesche's Erben.... '' WAH papers.

21. Sept. 25, 1942, Memorandum To the Executive Committee of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in United States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to Vesting Order No. 370.

22. George Walker was a director of American Ship and Commerce from its organization through 1928. Consult New York City Directory of Directors.

`` Harriman Fifteen Corporation Securities Position February 28, 1931, '' op. cit. The report lists 46,861 shares in the American Ship & Commerce Corp.

See `` Message from Mr. Bullfin, '' Aug. 30, 1934 (Harriman Fifteen section, Harriman papers, Library of Congress) for the joint supervision of Bush and Walker, respectively director and president of the corporation.

23. Cuno was later exposed by Walter Funk, Third Reich Press Chief and Under Secretary of Propaganda, in Funk's postwar jail cell at Nuremberg; but Cuno had died just as Hitler was taking power. William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960), p. 144. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1688.

24. See `` Elimination of German Resources for War, '' op. cit., pp. 881-82 on Voegler.

See Annual Report of the (Hamburg-Amerikanische-Packetfahrt-Aktien-Gesellschaft (Hapag or Hamburg-Amerika Line), March 1931, for the board of directors. A copy is in the New York Public Library Annex at 11th Avenue, Manhattan.

25. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., pp. 1178, 1453-54, 1597, 1599.

See `` Elimination of German Resources for War, '' op. cit., pp. 870-72 on Schroeder; p. 730 on Groeninger.

26. Annual Report of Hamburg-Amerika, op. cit.

Baron Rudolph Schroeder, Sr. to Averell Harriman, Nov. 14, 1932. K[night] W[ooley] handwritten note and draft reply letter, Dec. 9, 1932.

In his letter, Baron Rudolph refers to the family's American affiliate, J. Henry Schroder [name anglicized], of which Allen Dulles was a director, and his brother John Foster Dulles was the principal attorney.

Baron Bruno Schroder of the British branch was adviser to Bank of England Governor Montagu Norman, and Baron Bruno's partner Frank Cyril Tiarks was Norman's co-director of the Bank of England throughout Norman's career. Kurt von Schroeder was Hjalmar Schacht's delegate to the Bank for International Settlements in Geneva, where many of the financial arrangements for the Nazi regime were made by Montagu Norman, Schacht and the Schroeders for several years of the Hitler regime right up to the outbreak of World War II.

27. Confidential memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, op. cit.

28. U.S. Senate `` Nye Committee '' hearings, Sept. 14, 1934, pp. 1197-98, extracts from letters of Col. William N. Taylor, dated June 27, 1932 and Jan. 9, 1933.

29. American Ship and Commerce Corporation to Dr. Max Warburg, March 7, 1933.

Max Warburg had brokered the sale of Hamburg-Amerika to Harriman and Walker in 1920. Max's brothers controlled the Kuhn Loeb investment banking house in New York, the firm which had staked old E.H. Harriman to his 1890s buyout of the giant Union Pacific Railroad.

Max Warburg had long worked with Lord Milner and others of the racialist British Round Table concerning joint projects in Africa and Eastern Europe. He was an advisor to Hjalmar Schacht for several decades and was a top executive of Hitler's Reichsbank. The reader may consult David Farrer, The Warburgs: The Story of A Family (New York: Stein and Day, 1975).

30. Max Warburg, at M.M. Warburg and Co., Hamburg, to Averill [sic] Harriman, c/o Messrs. Brown Brothers Harriman & Co., 59 Wall Street, New York, N.Y., March 27, 1933.

31. This correspondence, and the joint statement of the Jewish organizations, are reproduced in Moshe R. Gottlieb, American Anti-Nazi Resistance, 1933-41: An Historical Analysis (New York: Ktav Publishing House, 1982).

32. Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities: Public Hearings before A Subcommittee of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of Representatives, Seventy Third Congress, New York City, July 9-12, 1934--Hearings No. 73-NY-7 (Washington: U.S. Govt. Printing Office, 1934). See testimony of Capt. Frederick C. Mensing, John Schroeder, Paul von Lilienfeld-Toal, and summaries by Committee members.

See New York Times, July 16, 1933, p. 12, for organizing of Nazi Labor Front at North German Lloyd, leading to Hamburg-Amerika after merger.

33. American Ship and Commerce Corporation telegram to Rudolph Brinckmann at M.M. Warburg, June 12, 1936.

Rudolph Brinckmann to Averell Harriman at 59 Wall St., June 20, 1936, with enclosed note transmitting Helfferich's letter.

Reply to Dr. Rudolph Brinckmann c/o M.M. Warburg and Co, July 6, 1936, in the Harriman papers at the Library of Congress. The file copy of this letter carries no signature, but is presumably from Averell Harriman.

34. Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 126. Signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed August 28, 1942. F.R. Doc. 42-8774; Filed September 4, 1942, 10:55 A.M.; 7 F.R. 7061 (No. 176, Sept. 5, 1942.) July 18, 1942, Memorandum To the Executive Committee of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in United States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to Vesting Order No. 126.

35. New York Times, May 20, 1933. Leading up to this agreement is a telegram which somehow escaped the shredder and may be seen in the Harriman papers in the Library of Congress. It is addressed to Nazi official Hjalmar Schacht at the Mayflower Hotel, Washington, dated May 11, 1933: `` Much disappointed to have missed seeing you Tuesday afternoon.... I hope to see you either in Washington or New York before you sail.

with my regards W.A. Harriman ''

36. Dulles to Bush letter and draft reply in WAH papers.

37. New York Times, Jan. 19, 1938.

[krys]

I could not respond to all your points on my last postbecause there were too many characters/smilies.... I will probably have to wait till somebody else posts in order to be able to post again.... maybe we should continue this discussion through ordinary mail or another forum as it went far away from martial arts.....

[konghan]

Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.
Gen George S. Patton

As an American I fall into this area of loving to fight rather than love.
Am I normal to like the sting of battle?
Is this a cultural mind set or are we as disciples of all the fighting arts blind to this somewhat violent love to the strategy of warring?

Football players love the moment of impact and I love the same in fighting.
Because I carry this ability seem to make me demand more respect for myself and draw the weapon from its sheath in haste, so to speak.
I worry this has slowed down my ability to full development of my potential
as a more considerate person and fighter.

I fearing if I show any kindness I will be walked on, retuning to the cycle to loving to fight vs. living to love.

It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.
(Epictetus (50-138 A.D.)

What's your thoughts on this strange love of warring?

Maui Jim

very true that is why many (not all ) westerners don`t understand the relationship of forms or katas to martial art. What they want is direct combat training not "martial art". In the military & law enforcement they don`t call their hand to hand training martial art rather they call it combat training. They also have this vulgar fixation on gladiatorial sport spectacle where athletes get paid millions of $ to entertained a cheering crowd that gets excited when ever athletes bang heads & act & talk trash for the sake of entertanement. Westerners get bored when they see humble athletes bowing to each other or showing sportsmanship & not acting or talking vulgarly.

[gracilva]

i live to love......but i'll kick your ass if you dont give me any

[konghan]

Um yeah but in all honestly katas are pretty much useless. The reason that the police call their training combat training is because the martail arts have gotten a bad rep thanks to mcdojos, and it doesnt sound as good as "Combat Training". Basically they take the stuff that works and eliminate the complex stuff or stuff that doesnt work, and then they have a combatives system or a system purly for combat.

That`s the reason its called combat training not martial art, an art is more than combat or the ability to kill. Long term health issue is not part of combat training its more on what one can learn now & that is the ability to fight. Combat is just one part of martial art another part of MA is the long term health benefits but the most important part is the development of good moral attitude of athletes.

That is why most westerners don`t want to have anything to do with the ceremonial aspects of martial arts like in muay thai the pre dance fight, in kung fu the lion dance, the offering of incense to ancestors, in some aikido school the shinto religious practice.

In fact there are more benefits in katas then going to a gym to do a full work out. Katas develop both internal & external muscle groups from the feet to the neck espacially the muscle tendons & all the small muscles. Seniors, handicap & able body people can do it without the need of any expensive exercise equipments.

Anther reason also is when you go into a martial art school espacially kung fu schools you`ll see written moral codes in their main gym words like humility, truthfulness, justice, honor & integrity.

That is what martial art is all about.

[krys]

We did help out some NAZI's after WWII because then the threat was the russians. Also typically after we conquer a country we rebuild it. Anyways we did send shipments of grenades, money and supplies to russia durning the second world war even when they shot down some of our planes when we were alies. Thats because the greater evil was the Nazi's at that time. We helped out bin laden and others like him so that the russians wouldnt gain a foothold in Afghanastan. We helped out both Sadam and the Iranians at the same time when they were fighting one other because long term they were both our enemies and if they could kill one another off we wouldnt have to fight them.

What I wanted to say about the nazis was that Bush's familly and associates did finance the nazi regime before and during WWII.... of course the actual president wasn't involved because he was too young , but peoples involved with the companies (Harriman, Brown) that helped the nazis build up later financed him and his father.... Anyway it was not publicized in the white house site you mentioned because it is not politically correct to be associated with the nazis....

.................................
"The Bush family made a profit from the Auschwitz prisoners’ slave labour. Prescott Sheldon Bush, ‘Dubya’s’ grandfather, had tight financial connections with the Nazis, thanks to which he multiplied the family’s fortune as a banker.

Prescott Bush was an executive and shareholder of the United Banking Corporation, which bought the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation from the Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who had been employing prisoners from nearby Auschwitz.

In the summer of 1942, the case was made public by the American press, which lead to the investigation of the financial records of UBC by the government.

On the 20th of October that year the authorities took over the company’s shares on the basis of an enemy trade act, which President Franklin D. Roosevelt had signed one week after the attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941.
........................

The russian wanted a foothold in Afghanistan because they wanted access to the gulf area.... the oil fields of that region were the reason of the Afghanistan campain.....
Same thing with Sadham and Khomeini, it was because of oil.....
Pb is that millions of muslims got killed in the conflict just because america played two tyranical regimes against each other....... this is one of the reasons many muslims bear bad feelings against the US leadership....

Power hungry peoples like Ben Laden ride this wave of hate to recruit followers.... Peoples who lost familly and belongings due to acts like this bear hatred.... what would your own feelings be if you lost familly/loved ones/home because of countrie's X manipulations? And being a muslim implies being part of a global community, any attack against a muslim group is perceived as an attack against the whole community...

I will answer to your other points in another post because of the number of character's limitation.... this thread is really mixed up