Who has the hardest kicks?

[Thai Bri]

I thought it was e = mc squared.

[falcon3624]

I think so too........never heard of that other one.......

[Ghost]

its f = mv squared where f = force m = mass and v = velocity.

Velocity is not speed, not quite anyway.

Velocity is directly linked to the direction the speed is travelling in. this makes a difference i.e. you can go around a corener in your car at the same speed say 30 mph but your velocity is changeing because the direction your speed is moving in changes.

You have to look at this carefully as with the TKD flick of the kick you may find the velocity going down a bit.


Also one other factor is the mass, the mass is relative to the amount of body weight behind the kick mass is not weight but in this instance it might as well be.

With the thai kick the whole body is behind the kick, if you take the target away the thai kick actually swing the person round in a circle, the kick follows through if you like.

With the TKD kick it can be stopped and retracted back to start point. I hope this is clear.

This is due to the reduced Mass and velocity, if you like it or not, the mass is low because you are effectively only useing the weight of part of your leg, the momentum is lower so it can be retracted.

However, the Force is still high enough to achieve a knock out and thats what counts, you dont need any more force than that.

This is how the Thai kick is more powerful from a scientific point of view.

The TKD kick is very useful at head height because it is powerful enough to do the job and can be more easily retracted.

As i stated before if i had a clear shot i would use the Thai one for a guaranteed knock out for the reasons stated.

Hope i didnt bore you but i had the pleasure of doing Physics at Uni.

[eXcessiveForce]

Velocity is a function of distance over time


We analyzed a TKD kick with Vector analysis. It was very interesting.


Someone still needs to define hardest though. Hardest to perform, most painful, Most damage, degree of damage?

Thai kicks Hurt, they hit a large surface area, usually targeted to muscle areas and very sites such as the thigh. Very painful. Lots of momentum. Large arch makes the kick easier to read and slower because of the greater distance covered. Effective for knockdowns especially on untrained people.


TKD kick smaller surface area. Usually targeted to specific targets, Head, neck, solar plexus, floating rib, groin, spleen, bladder. Often not painful as the striking surface of the kick may not activate many nerves that cause pain so less pain. Much more damage possible. Skull fracture, jaw fracture, broken rib, stopping the heart, rupture of the spleen and liver. Loss of consiousness or death can occur from these. Effective on untrained people.


So are we talking pain compliance or actual destructive force.

Hardest kick is one with the highest speed
The formula is F=MA
Or F= The change in momentum over the time interval.
The formula for impulse is Force=impulse over time interval
Kinetic Energy is K.E.=1/2MV^2


When working with Physics it is important to not only use the right formula but to make sure you do not interchange the letters as it does make a difference.


The difference between the kicks of the same caliber is this.
Thai kicks release energy over a large surface over a longer period of time. This creates a fluid shock, it also gives the body time to respond decreasing the chance or structural damage. In this type of strike the weakest surface takes the risk of damage if enough energy is applied. Thus Retireds Broken leg when he kicked someones hip.

TKD kicks release the energy to a small area in a short amount of time. Here the energy is released and the striking tool retracted as quickly as possible to keep the striking tool from being damaged from energy rebounding off the target. This release of engery creates an impluse shockwave. The energy must go somewhere and if delivered fast enough will disipate within the body doing massive damage to structure and internal organs.


The most damaging hit is the Kick with the best mechanics, High speed, sufficient mass, correct target and a stationary target

Thai kicks work well against moving targets as long as the target stays inside the arc of the kick.

Tkd Kicks work well when timed properly to hit as the target moves into the strike range.

The biggest problem I have seen with TKD students is the kick at the target and therefore end up chasing it. The trick is to aim for where the target will be at the completion of the kick. Very few people do this but it is still the proper way to do it.

[Ghost]

Speed is a function of distance over time Speed = distance/time
Velocity is not the same as it is direction specific, check it you will see i am right.
F= ma is the same formula.
Its just a different way of saying the same thing.

When you go round a corner acceleration changes even though your speed stays the same its easier to understand velocity thats why i used it.
a = v2 so you can just substitute that instead.

[eXcessiveForce]

A=v2
so the formula is

F=MV^2

not F=MV

[Ghost]

Yeah i did put that just i wrote it.
But yes thats the formula.

Not trying to prove you wrong.

[eXcessiveForce]

I missed the typed squared when I reviewed the formula.


SO we are both saying the same thing.

Which means that Speed is the Dominate force multiplyer.


Which is good since during a fight you can't increase your mass

[Ghost]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
I missed the typed squared when I reviewed the formula.


SO we are both saying the same thing.

Which means that Speed is the Dominate force multiplyer.


Which is good since during a fight you can't increase your mass

Yes we are saying the same thing, i just think that stating the velocity is important as it makes more sence than acceleration which gets confusing for most people when you are talking about something rotating.

"Which means that Speed is the Dominate force multiplyer."

In the formula yes.
In the case of the kick maybe.

This is why i mentioned the amount of body mass behind the kick.

you see lets take some made up figures just to see what the formula does to it.

say we have a mass of 2 and the velocity squared is 20 then we have a result of F= 40 Lets say thats the TKD kick, doesnt matter what the numbers are.

Now if the Thai head kick is bit slower say 15 but the whole bosy is behind it, you are talking about a serious increase in mass, read my earlier post, you could be looking at an equation like
F = 5 X 15
Do you see .
the Thai kick is not much slower but the amount of body weight behind it (mass) is mcuh higher.
Higher resultant force.

[Tom Yum]

Smashing Power vs Penetrating Force

MT kicks have more power because their goal is to knock down or KO their opponent to win the fight. About 5% of Thai fights end in death. TKD kicks are thrown in competition with judges watching for a cleanly landed kick or punch. Sometimes a kick can cause a KO, but it is more the exception than the rule. Usually TKD competitors finish in one piece but with considerable bruising and sometimes with serious injury - broken rib or fractured jaw being the most common.

Muay Thai was a form of combat used for over 1,000 years. Its changed and evolved, but only because fighting to the death (as its original goal) is neither legal nor socially accepted. The use of the ring, rounds, weight classes and boxing gloves was introduced about 80 years ago.

TKD is the art of kicking and punching that is derived from Tae Kyon and Shotokan Karate. Grand Master Choi Hong Hi was forced to serve in the Japanese army during Japans occupation of Korea. It was in Japan that he learned Shotokan and combined it with Tae kyon that he studied before WW2 ended and he returned to Korea. Since MA were banned by the Japanese, TKD surfaced as Korea's national sport producing some absolutely amazing competitors.

MT vs. TKD
I would have to go with MT. In the 70s, 6 gong fu masters travelled to Thailand for exhibition matches and were beaten as well. American kickboxers in the 80s who started in karate or TKD (Black Belts) got their @sses handed to them by the Thais for alot of reasons. While the Americans were getting beat in the 80s, the Japanese and Chinese decided to learn muay thai from thai instructors and created Seidokan Karate (Japan) and San Shou (China). Each carrying strong muay thai influences but with a few handpicked techniques from their native karate & gong fu.

Then again, we haven't seen the best of Korea vs. the best of Thailand. I think the Koreans look at their art not only as a sport, but as a jewel to be protected and thus do not compete where its not necessary. During the Vietnam war, Korean MA instructors employed by the US lead some of the most brutal behind the scenes H2H combat confrontations - they probably weren't TKD instructors, rather instructors of other Korean MAs (There's a system called Tu Kong Mu Sool - 'special forces martial arts' based from jiujitsu and gong fu)

However, if you take a serious TKD blue belt and pit him against someone who does MT strictly for fitness, I'd give it to the TKD guy.

I think MT kicks are more powerful, but that doesn't mean that TKD kicks cannot incapacitate a fighter. IMO, the best kickers defined as in most power and greatest kicking options are the competent TKD practicioners who have also completed serious MT training.

[Ghost]

Its not %5 its 5 to 6 a year mate, your right on the rest.

[eXcessiveForce]

and here I was thinking Muay Thai was gonna wipe itself out in a little over 20 years.

TKD has had Several deaths in the last few years as well. There is a great deal of focus on control in TKD competition. They pull the kick )done by kicking at the surface of the target and not through the target. This results in lots of surface wounds like Bruising. The problem is because sport TKD is so prevalent in the last 20 years I have seen a shift in instruction to where the students aren't even being taught to kick through the target anymore. Thus no weight behind the kick.

Most of the kicks should have the body weight behind the kick. This is done by pivoting the base leg at the last moment and leaning into the kick. Whereas in tournaments you see a lot of peope throwing kicks while leaning away or slowing down the kick trying to pull it. In my training we were always taught to through full power full speed kicks at the target and just select the wrong target so you didn't hurt your partner. Leads to very bad habits. To compete in TKD and use it for self defense you have to learn two systems. TKD sport where you pull kicks all the time. And self defense where you throw full force kicks with no pulling. This leads to devoting less time to combat training. Also many students don't like the higher contact so you have more students doing point sparring than combat sparring.


The system of TKD I started in was started by H. U. Lee. He was hired by the U.S. military to train U.S. Forces during the Korean War. He was sponsered for citizenship by some of the troops he trained. The system was taught with a much more combat oriented role when I trained in my younger days. It now is much more money and marketing oriented. The system is still mostly intact but is not being taught properly anymore. Comercialization destroys all martial arts in the end.

The trick is to evaluate kicks thrown by highly trained individuals and measure the outcomes but that is not really an option. They do have devices to measure though. I always wanted one but i didn't want to shell out 10K just to see how hard my students were punching and kicking.

[Ghost]

Its difficult really because you need the same person to perform the kicks,so the mass is the same and then they have to be unbiased. Not likely

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
and here I was thinking Muay Thai was gonna wipe itself out in a little over 20 years.

To compete in TKD and use it for self defense you have to learn two systems. TKD sport where you pull kicks all the time. And self defense where you throw full force kicks with no pulling. This leads to devoting less time to combat training. Also many students don't like the higher contact so you have more students doing point sparring than combat sparring.

Comercialization destroys all martial arts in the end.

The trick is to evaluate kicks thrown by highly trained individuals and measure the outcomes but that is not really an option. They do have devices to measure though. I always wanted one but i didn't want to shell out 10K just to see how hard my students were punching and kicking.

Yes comercialization destroys the martial arts. Sadly enough, it eventually happens to all martial arts, but not all martial artists. There will allways be a few good instructors and fighters left in each style as the more effective or popular styles are introduced. But they too will eventually get watered down by comercialization.

Look at Bill Wallace, He Il Cho, Jhoon Ree, etc. These guys can kick with serious power even in their 60s.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by Ghost
Its difficult really because you need the same person to perform the kicks,so the mass is the same and then they have to be unbiased. Not likely

I would argue that Master He Il Cho probably not over 160lbs dripping wet, can kick with more power than most heavy weight American kickboxers and probably as powerful (if not more powerful) than some thai fighters.