Whats the dif between BJJ and just reg Jujutsu?

[Manufest]

Whats the dif between BJJ and just reg Jujutsu? and is Akido any good?

[Manufest]

is there a specific reason why no one answers?

[RobertG]

I'm guessing no one answered for a few reasons. One was that you posted on Friday night and a lot of people actually go out on Friday night and don't post on message boards.

My second guess is that there probably are a number of threads on this issue already; people hate rehashing questions that have been answered over and over.

That said, I'll take a shot at this one. Brazilian jujistsu is actually derived from judo. More specifically its derived from judo groundwork, having largely abandoned a lot of the standing throws and sweeps. BJJ is largely a groundwork oriented art. Japanese jujitsu is much broader technique wise, having been the base for contemporary judo. JJJ includes striking techniques, throws, and some groundwork. While it'd be fair to call JJJ at grappling art (the strikes is does have are used to make the throws/submissions easier), I don't think that their emphasis is fighting on the ground in most styles. JJJ developed on the battlefield. If you went to the ground around a bunch of samurai, chances are someone would hack you to bits with their sword while you were working to win on the ground with someone else. Also, I've never done it, but I can't imagine that rolling around in armor is much fun. The idea is to get the other guy on the ground while keeping yourself standing (so you can use a weapon to kill him). Learning JJJ alone is actually something of a historical fallacy--it may not seem as effective today because it evolved as a supplement to guys who were going to be wearing armor and carrying several weapons on them all the time. It'd be pretty rare for a samurai to be caught without a blade of some sort on their person. And so there is little point in trying to choke someone out when you can just throw them, pull a blade and cut their throat. BJJ evolved in a largely weapons free environment. This is obvious, because you don't go to the ground in an environment where people with bladed weapons are likely to cut you up while you roll around with your first opponent.

The same goes for Aikido; although the history of Daito-Ryu (aikido's predecessor) is a little murky, granting that Aikijutsu dates back to the samurai days, it has the same problem as contemporary JJJ. Aikijutsu would have been used by people who had weapons on them. They would have used aiki-techniques when they had temporarily lost a weapon to buy time to pull a second weapon. So a lot of aikido techniques don't make much sense in the abscence of weapons. Yeah, aikido folk do study swords sometimes. But I've never seen them use small blades in conjuction with their unarmed techniques. Daito-Ryu at least still incorporates more weapons training.

So this is what is boils down too IMO: Judo/BJJ are modern arts, tested under modern conditions (e.g. sparring against resisting opponents without weapons). You can possibly include Tomiki Aikido in this since they do randori. Aikido and JJJ are now, I think, largely exercises in history divorced from their appropriate context. Neither has a lot of emphasis in sparring, techniques are maintained for historical reasons, without recognizing that the people who would have used those techniques were armed and often armored.

[Manufest]

BJJ isn't avail in my area, is JJJ better then TKD??

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Manufest
BJJ isn't avail in my area, is JJJ better then TKD??

Well that would probably depend in large part on the quality of the schools in question. I'd say JJJ gives you more options (strikes, takedowns, some grappling/submission work). But if the JJJ school is just based on repeating techniques and doing kata, with no interactive drills and sparring/randori, then I'm not sure its going to do you a lot of good. But I'm a big proponent of training against real people. If the JJJ school doesn't have that, and the TKD people do (e.g. sport TKD), then I'll take the perhaps unpopular position and say you're better off working your kicks against people who are trying to kick you than going through static kata everyday. But check out the schools, and then go wherever you feel most comfortable. You're not locked into one art forever, so as long as you keep an open mind, you can always cross-train when the opportunity comes along.

[drocb]

I do a system of modern JJJ. It is really cool. I have also done TKD. Go with the JJJ. Definitely.

[jules]

16) What are the different Arts, Schools and Styles?
16.3) Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
(Contributor: Don Geddis )

Intro:
Possibly the premier ground-fighting martial art. Made famous by Royce Gracie in the early UFCs in the mid-1990's, it specializes in submission grappling when both fighters are on the ground. Techniques include positional control (especially the "guard" position), and submissions such as chokes and arm locks.

Origin:
Brazil.

History:
In the mid-1800's in Japan, there were a large number of styles ("ryu") of jiu-jitsu (sometimes spelled "jujitsu"). Techniques varied between ryu, but generally included all manner of unarmed combat (strikes, throws, locks, chokes, wrestling, etc.) and occasionally some weapons training. One young but skilled master of a number of jiu-jitsu styles, Jigoro Kano, founded his own ryu and created the martial art Judo (aka Kano-ryu jiu-jitsu) in the 1880's. One of Kano's primary insights was to include full-power practice against resisting, competent opponents, rather than solely rely on the partner practice that was much more common at the time.

One of Kano's students was Mitsuo Maeda, who was also known as Count Koma ("Count of Combat"). Maeda emigrated to Brazil in 1914. He was helped a great deal by the Brazilian politician Gastão Gracie, whose father George Gracie had emigrated to Brazil himself from Scotland. In gratitude for the assistance, Maeda taught jiu-jitsu to Gastao's son Carlos Gracie. Carlos in turn taught his brothers Osvaldo, Gastão Jr., Jorge, and Helio.

In 1925, Carlos and his brothers opened their first jiu-jitsu academy, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born in Brazil.

At this point, the base of techniques in BJJ was similar to those in Kano's Judo academy in Japan. As the years progressed, however, the brothers (notably Carlos and Helio) and their students refined their art via brutal no-rules fights, both in public challenges and on the street. Particularly notable was their willingness to fight outside of weight categories, permitting a skilled small fighter to attempt to defeat a much larger opponent.


They began to concentrate more and more on submission ground fighting, especially utilizing the guard position. This allowed a weaker man to defend against a stronger one, bide his time, and eventually emerge victorious.

In the 1970's, the undisputed jiu-jitsu champion in Brazil was Rolls Gracie. He had taken the techniques of jiu-jitsu to a new level. Although he was not a large man, his ability to apply leverage using all of his limbs was unprecedented. At this time the techniques of the open guard and its variants (spider guard, butterfly guard) became a part of BJJ. Rolls also developed the first point system for jiu-jitsu only competition. The competitions required wearing a gi, awarded points (but not total victories) for throws and takedowns, and awarded other points for achieving different ground positions (such as passing an opponent's guard). After Rolls' death in a hang-gliding accident, Rickson Gracie became the undisputed (and undefeated!) champion, a legend throughout Brazil and much of the world. He has been the exemplar of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu technique for the last two decades, since the early 1980's, in both jiu-jitsu competition and no-rules MMA competition.

Jiu-jitsu techniques have continued to evolve as the art is constantly tested in both arenas. For example, in the 1990's Roberto "Gordo" Correa, a BJJ black belt, injured one of his knees, and to protect his leg he spent a lot of practice time in the half-guard position. When he returned to high-level jiu-jitsu competition, he had the best half-guard technique in the world. A position that had been thought of as a temporary stopping point, or perhaps a defensive-only position, suddenly acquired a new complexity that rapidly spread throughout the art.

In the early 1990's, Rorion Gracie moved from Brazil to Los Angeles. He wished to show the world how well the Gracie art of jiu-jitsu worked. In Brazil, no-rules Mixed Martial Art (MMA) contests (known as "vale tudo") had been popular since Carlos Gracie first opened his academy in 1925, but in the world at large most martial arts competition was internal to a single style, using the specialized rules of that style's practice.

Rorion and Art Davie conceived of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. This was a series of pay-per-view television events in the United States that began in 1993. They pitted experts of different martial arts styles against each other in an environment with very few rules, in an attempt to see what techniques "really worked" when put under pressure. Rorion also entered his brother Royce Gracie, an expert in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as one of the contestants.

Royce dominated the first years of the UFC against all comers, amassing eleven victories with no fighting losses. At one event he defeated four different fighters in one night. This, from a fighter that was smaller than most of the others (at 170 lbs, in an event with no weight classes), looked thin and scrawny, and used techniques that most observers, even experienced martial artists, didn't understand.

In hindsight, much of Royce's success was due to the fact that he understood very well (and had trained to defend against) the techniques that his opponents would use, whereas they often had no idea what he was doing to them. In addition, the ground fighting strategy and techniques of BJJ are among the most sophisticated in the world. Besides the immediate impact of an explosion of interest in BJJ across the world (particularly in the US and Japan), the lasting impact of Royce's early UFC dominance is that almost every successful MMA fighter now includes BJJ as a significant portion of their training.

Description:
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is primarily a ground-fighting art. Most techniques involve both fighters on the mat. There is a heavy emphasis on positional strategy, which is about which fighter is on top, and where each person's legs are. Positions are stable situations, from which a large variety of techniques are available to both fighters.

The primary positions include:

Guard: The person applying the guard is on the bottom with his back on the ground; his legs are wrapped around his opponent's hips (who is said to be "in the guard").
Side control: Chest-on-chest but without the legs being entangled.
Mount: On top of his opponent (who "is mounted"), sitting on his chest, with one leg on either side of his torso.
Back mount: Behind his opponent, with his feet hooked around his opponent's hips and upper thighs.

Specific techniques taught are designed either to improve one's position (for example, to "pass the guard", by going from being "in the guard" to getting around the opponent's legs, resulting in side control); or else as a finishing submissions. Most submissions are either chokes (cutting off the blood supply to the brain) or arm locks (hyperextending the elbow, or twisting the shoulder).

Belt ranks start at white belt, and progress through blue, purple, brown, and then black. It generally takes about 2-3 years of training multiple times per week to be promoted to the next belt rank. However, there is no formal rank test. Instead, rank is about the ability to apply jiu-jitsu techniques in a competitive match. A student generally needs to be able to reliably defeat most other students at a given rank in order to be promoted to the next rank.

Given the jiu-jitsu roots, and the interest in competition, occasionally related techniques are taught. In each case, other specific martial arts focus on these sets of techniques more than BJJ, and they generally just receive passing mention and rare practice in BJJ training. For example, takedowns tend to be similar to Judo and western wrestling; leg locks (such as in Sambo) are not encouraged but sometimes allowed. Some schools teach street self-defense or weapon defense as well; this instruction tends to be much more like old-style Japanese jiu-jitsu with partner practice, and rarely impacts the day-to-day grappling training. Also, many dedicated BJJ students are also interested in MMA competition, and attempt to practice their techniques without a gi, and sometimes with adding striking from boxing or Muay Thai.

Training:
Most training has students wearing a heavy ("jiu-jitsu" or "Judo") gi/kimono, on a floor with padded mats. A typical class involves 30 minutes of warm ups and conditioning, 30 minutes of technique practice with a willing partner, and 30 minutes of free sparring training, against an opponent of equal skill who attempts to submit you.

Most of the training is done with all students on the mat. For example, training usually beings with both students facing each other from a kneeling position.

Competition is also encouraged. For a jiu-jitsu tournament, competitors are divided by age, belt rank, and weight class. Time limits are generally five to ten minutes, depending on belt rank. Matches start with both competitiors standing, on a floor with a padded mat. A tap out from submission ends the match. If time runs out without a submission, points determine the winner:

2 points: Takedown from standing; Knee-on-stomach position; or Scissor, sweep, or flip, using legs (from bottom position to top)
3 points: Passing the guard
4 points: Mount; or Mount on back (with leg hooks in)

Many BJJ students are also interested in open submission grappling tournaments (different points rules, usually no gi), or Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). Most BJJ instructors encourage such competition, and often assist in the training. However, typically BJJ classes wear a gi, start from the knees, and prohibit strikes.

Sub-Styles:
None.

However, note that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is sometimes taught under slightly different names. In Brazil it is generally known simply as "jiu-jitsu".

Members of the Gracie family often call it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", and in fact this name probably pre-dates the now more-generic BJJ for labelling the art when outside of Brazil. (This probably would have become the generic name for the art, but Rorion Gracie trademarked the phrase for his academy in Torrance, CA. A later lawsuit between Rorion Gracie and Carley Gracie was resolved to permit Gracie family members to use that phrase when teaching their family's art of jiu-jitsu. However, the generic term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" is now preferred for referring to the art independent of instructor.)

Also, the Machado brothers (cousins of the Gracies) sometimes call their style "Machado Jiu-Jitsu". Any of these names refer to basically the same art.

[Manufest]

hmmm, should i read that post or just buy the book?

[Lizard]

Don't be ungrateful. You asked a question and someone gave you a long detailed answer. Read it.

[Thai Bri]

You boring little man.

[Manufest]

everyone takes everythign so seriously here.....

[Manufest]

tkd can be alot of fun, maybe thats why all of you hate it, can't have fun, can't laugh!!!! sarcasm, whats that? rofl

[Lizard]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
You boring little man.

I'm not little.

If I try to joke I'm not being constructive, if I'm serious I'm boring.

"sarcasm, whats that?"

If there are intelligent aliens out there don't let them know about sarcasm. If they find out that humans like to say something when they mean the opposite they'll think you're crazy.

[Thai Bri]

Yes. A jolly good point.

You boring twat.

[Manufest]

Originally posted by Lizard


If there are intelligent aliens out there don't let them know about sarcasm. If they find out that humans like to say something when they mean the opposite they'll think you're crazy.

........ so you're an alien? last time i checked i was talking to humains who use sarcasm, i could be wrong though

how many aliens aer on this forum?