Is trad. Eastern medicine/chi theory an actual science?

[BlackMaskX]

Before I start, I know this doesn't really belong in the MMA forum, but the "dim mak" and "chi power" threads were here, and I didn't really know where else to put this thread.

From reading the recent "Dim mak" and "Chi power" threads, it seems many proponents of Eastern medicine, dim mak, and using "chi" for self-defense argue that chi theory is not explained by Western medical science, but is easily explained by Eastern medical science.

The question that bothers me is: Are traditional Eastern medicine (TEM) and chi theory actual sciences? Were they developed using a sound scientific method, or are they simply based on superstition or speculation?

Webster's defines "science" as "knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws, especially as obtained and tested through scientific method." A "scientific method" is "principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses." So, if chi theory and TEM, which is based on chi theory, are to be considered sciences, at least under that definition, there is some need for quantitative measurement.

But how do you measure chi? If you define chi as "bio-energy" or "life energy," then you need a way to measure "bio-energy" or "life energy." There are instruments, methods, and units for measuring electrical energy, thermal energy, and kinetic energy. So how do you measure "bio-energy" or "life energy?" Regarding the use of chi for fighting, you can measure the amount of muscular force put into a strike, but how do you measure the amount of chi in a strike? How do you measure the chi that was disrupted by a dim-mak strike?

I don't doubt that some TEM treatments are effective, but I don't know if it can really be called a "science." I'm just wondering if the theory of balancing the body's chi is a valid explanation for *why* these treatments work. Western perspectives and Eastern perspectives may differ, but the scientific method should be universally applicable.

Anyway, I'm through rambling for now . . . it took me a long time to come up with this brilliant-sounding crap
(actually, it probably sounds retarded.)
I hope I made some sense, though.

[sun fist]

Chi is sort of a mystery, that I believe exists, it develops sinternal energy and gives us health. It runs throughout our body by rythm of a chi clock. The better you chi flows the healthier you are. This electic type energy can be effected of its flow if the body has bruised internal organs or nerves. So yes I feel it is a major science and a substance more useful than blood.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by sun fist
Chi is sort of a mystery, that I believe exists, it develops sinternal energy and gives us health. It runs throughout our body by rythm of a chi clock. The better you chi flows the healthier you are. This electic type energy can be effected of its flow if the body has bruised internal organs or nerves. So yes I feel it is a major science and a substance more useful than blood.

No, it is not a major science because you cannot get degrees in Chiology at Universities.

No, it is not more useful than blood. No one has ever died because they lost a pint of chi. How about you volunteer to empty yourself of blood and see if you can keep living on chi alone.

What the hell is a chi clock? That is totally absurd. On the floor above me at the university are some of the best biological clock researchers in the country. None of them has ever heard of a chi clock.

Chi is not a type of electrical energy otherwise people would have detected it already. Where exactly does it fit along the electromagnetic spectrum? Oh right, it doesn't.

Damn, you'd think we were living in the dark ages again given the level of scientific literacy around here.

[yenhoi]

"Traditional eastern Medicine" has been recognized by the west for many years as "working."

Doesnt mean it all qualifys as a "science" from a western viewpoint, but it does mean that the main doctors and boards of doctors in the west have come together and decided that what they do in the East is okay with them, etc.

There are many resources on the net that a vist to ask jeeves, or a few web searches would yield great results.

5 element theory of creation and destruction as well as "chi science" play a huge role in "Traditional Eastern Medicine."

[yenhoi]

You can study eastern medicine at several universitys.

Damn, you'd think we were living in the dark ages again given the level of scientific literacy around here

You'd think with all the myths you are basing your assumptions on that you would have been hit with a bolt of lightning by now.

Talk to any Traditional Eastern Doctor and I doubt he will claim chi has anything to do with electricity.

There are also thousands of books published in western languages that explain TCM very clearly for those that wish to learn.

[RobertG]

I'd almost be willing to grant chi is electrical in nature. After all, you actually can measure the small amount of electrical energy the human body generates.

If you're actually claiming chi is not part of the electromagnetic spectrum, then you are admitting that chi has no phyiscal basis. Which, in fact, it does not.

I've already explained this in great detail in the other ki/chi threads. Chi is make believe. Placebo effect. It works wonders. Either chi is part of the electromagnetic spectrum--in which case a physiologist would have discovered it by now--or, chi does not exist. It cannot exist outside of this universe, and if its in this universe, its a recognized form of energy. Period. Unless you want to argue that chi is dark matter. Fine. Then physicists would have discovered that all the missing dark matter is sitting in humans by now. Or you could argue that chi is extra-dimensional...except that the other dimensions collapsed soon after the Big Bang.

Ummm, and people that think that Tiger's penis is medicine don't know squat about anything. If you want to believe the people that are driving species to extinction in Asia for their "medicine", then go ahead. I'm soooooo sure that they've discovered this missing force in the universe, but somehow any knowledge of ecology has eluded them. Or how about glands from musk deer? Shall I continue with the list of medicinal ingredients used by TCM that are wrecking havoc on the ecosystems of Asia? Sorry, chi and ground up animal parts are about as scientific as bleeding people, the four humors theory, and lobotomies. Western doctors have done plenty of stupid crap too--usually when they did not follow the scientific method (which is often because Western doctors are not scientists either--they just get their idiotic ideas tested by scientists).

And yes, I'm aware you can get a degree in TCM in this country. Big deal. I don't see NIH money flowing into those institutions. You can also get degrees in Reiki therapy, which is basically the same sort of crap. Wave your hands over someone and they're healed. Get real. Snake oil and charlatanism.

[yenhoi]

chi is breath. breath. breath properly.

IMO.

TCM works.

IMO, and many others. Im not saying its better then anything else, or more correct, or the most correct. I think its incorrect to call the entire realm of TCM snake oil and placebo.

*shrug*

I dont see anything mystical about it.

[RobertG]

First off, no chi is not breath. If you look at the classical Chinese literature, they most certainly do believe chi is a type of energy that flows along meridian lines. They didn't think chi was merely breath, but a sort of life force.

Now, lets consider this issue in more depth. There was no formal development of biology as an independent science in China. There is no doubt that China was, for much of its history, as advanced technology, if not more so, than West. But they arrived at this knowledge through a method totally different than the Europeans. This doesn't negate the value of their knowledge--obviously without the compasses and gunpowder Europeans got from China there would have been no reversal of power in the world (that, or it would have taken Europeans a lot longer as they would have had to develop these tools themselves...). So yes, the Chinese had some advanced technology. But they lacked any formal development of biology. There was no deep understanding of anatomy, physiology, evolution, biochemistry--any of the compenents necessary to a rigorous medical science. So first and foremost, TCM is not biologically based. I hate to use such post-modernist language, but TCM is most certainly a social construct placed upon the human body. That some fraction of it corresponds to biological reality is based upon empirical observation, not because of any deep understanding of biology.

That all said, TCM was not actually an important component of Chinese civilization or science. For most of the history of China, what we think of us as TCM was reserved for the wealthy--as medicine has been for most of history. The average peasant could not afford accupuncture, moxibustion, or tiger penis balms. It was the wealthy that got these treatments. If we look to European history as a guide, its likely that the treatments the rich Chinese received were as useful as the ones their European counterparts got. Rich Europeans routinely got bled or few mercury for their ills. To think that a medicine not actually based in biology got things right is naive. Let us also not forget that TCM was almost exclusively used to treat mild and chronic conditions. Such conditions are likely to get better on their own with or without treatment. And of this fraction of illnesses that TCM would treat, accupuncture was used on a fraction of those--that is, it was not necessarily a major component of their medicinal system.

What did the poor peasants do? They did what poor peasants everywhere did--they died. They probably had a fair number of effective herbs in their pharmacopia--but since peasants don't write things down, whether or not their empirically derived treatments became part of the classical TCM pharmacopia is not necessarily known.

Anyway, along come the Europeans and effectively destroy Chinese civilization. Now by the time Mao comes along TCM has been effected both by 400 years of European contact and by upheaval of the society around it. I would guess that some of the rigor it originally had was lost. The Aztecs were plenty advanced when the Europeans pulled into town. No one is much interested in the medicine or science of Mexican peasants these days. Being over-run by an imperial power generally does things like destroy your cultural knowledge. So now Mao, needing both to instill a sense of nationalism in his people and needing a cheap way to provide medical care to hundreds of millions of people, hits on the idea of reintroducing TCM, but this time to the masses. So now you are rounding up the practioners of a now decaying art that was probably rife with charlatans and quackery (much as Western medicine has been plagued with), having them teach quickly a bunch of new recruits, and sending them off to the four corners of the empire to practice this new medicine. Funny thing is that Western trained doctors are now for the privelleged beauracrats. The peasants still get stuck with crappy medicine. Sure, in an effort to boost national pride and morale, China invested some in trying to prove the efficacy of TCM. So they figured out stunts like anaesthesia with accupuncture (not possible until they actually learned how to perform surgery from the West...). But the attempt to sell TCM to the West is not based on its actual efficacy (which is probably negligible), but a combination of the credulity of Americans and the desire of the Chinese people to regain respect and prominence on the world stage.

If we break down TCM we have the following things: accupuncture/moxibustion; herbal treatments; massage; breathing exercises.
I might have left out a few things, but I think the above represents most of TCM. Well accupuncture, which effects peripheral nerve endings, not meridians, seems to be moderately effective at moderating some sorts of pain. Well you could pop a couple of aspirin instead. Its a neat trick, and it might be worthwhile investigating why sticking a needle into a nerve modulates pain, but I don't think there is much practical use. Ummm, the moxibustion can go back with the bleeding, mercury and the like. The herbs are certainly worth investigating. Some herbal supplements are showing great promise. But you hardly need to go to a TCM doctor for this. Hell, a naturopathic doctor at least has to go through rigorous training in biochemistry, so I'd rather trust their opinion than someone who's training consists of determining my prescription based upon my wind to fire ration or something. And all the endagered animal based drugs, well, these obviously need to go. I don't really care if Tiger penis cures cancer. Synthesize it in the lab then. You can't go around hunting endagered animals into extinction for folk remedies. This is exactly my point about medicine for rich medieval types being transplanted to the masses. If the occasional wealthy beauracrat in 1350 wanted to drink an elixir of tiger penis and musk deer glands, fine. Its totally useless, but the market for it was tiny. Now you've got a billion plus people wanting this crap. Fine, if you want it, then go synthesize it all.

Now as for the other parts--massage and breathing exercises, well, yes, they work. We've got some idea of why they work. And given that nearly every culture on Earth has developed massage and breathing exercises, there is something to them. Its not unique to China.

So, bottom line, no TCM as a whole is not effective, although certain components, stripped of their cultural baggage, might be. There is no chi any more than there are four humors, five elements, or any other such nonsense. If you don't have a deep knowledge of biology you cannot develop an effective way to fix broken bodies. Period. China never even developed a rudimentary knowledge of biology (despite impressive advances in many other fields), so medicine based on such knowledge cannot be effective.

[Thai Bri]

Yeah, but they crush Tiger's gonads into powder and it helps you get a hard on.

Yeah, right.

[sun fist]

Originally posted by RobertG


No, it is not a major science because you cannot get degrees in Chiology at Universities.

No, it is not more useful than blood. No one has ever died because they lost a pint of chi. How about you volunteer to empty yourself of blood and see if you can keep living on chi alone.

What the hell is a chi clock? That is totally absurd. On the floor above me at the university are some of the best biological clock researchers in the country. None of them has ever heard of a chi clock.

Chi is not a type of electrical energy otherwise people would have detected it already. Where exactly does it fit along the electromagnetic spectrum? Oh right, it doesn't.

Damn, you'd think we were living in the dark ages again given the level of scientific literacy around here.

A chi clock is where the chi flows at certain times of the day. check out the book: The Secrets of Eagle Claw Kung Fu

[RobertG]

Originally posted by sun fist


A chi clock is where the chi flows at certain times of the day. check out the book: The Secrets of Eagle Claw Kung Fu

This is assuming there is such a thing as chi to begin with. Since there is no chi, there cannot be a clock that determines when chi flows. But, hey, if you discover that chi actually exists I'm sure there is a Nobel Prize in your future, a seat at the American Academy of Sciences, and millions of dollars.

Btw, I looked up that book--it looks questionable. Eagle Claw did not come from the military. Common sense would dictate that--you don't go around messing with hand lock techniques on the battlefield. My guess is that historically the Chinese military used spears, swords and bows--like armies everywhere have until the advent of guns. The idiot who tried to use Eagle Claw techniques on the battlefield would quickly have his limbs hacked off by the other soldiers with blades. I'd guess the modern Chinese military practices something along the lines of San Shou. I could go on and on, but suffice to say if the author doesn't even understand that empty handed combat involving elaborate locking techniques did not evolve from the military, his understanding of science is likely to be equally challenged. Hence, such a person is not an authorative source on the existence of "chi clocks".

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe the Chinese army spent a lot of time training their guys in Eagle Claw kung fu. Then the Mongols came and showed them how effective Eagle Claw against a well disciplined army with weapons. Speaking of which, if the Chinese had all these super chi powers how did the Mongols destroy their armies? And it was a total destruction--it wasn't like, oh, the Mongols sort of just barely beat the Chinese. They decimated them. And they didn't use chi to do it. They used horses, bows, arrows, spears and swords. These seem to be very effective weapons against chi.

[Manufest]

couldn't this be compared to a religion? how can you believe in god, or the holy spirit? there's not that much more proof......

[toe-hold]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Yeah, but they crush Tiger's gonads into powder and it helps you get a hard on.

Yeah, right.

wise men speak because they have something to say,
fools, because they have to say something.