What is George thinking????

[Masala]

He is trying to block a hand recount?? That is crazy! You would think that our potential president would want to do everything possible to make sure that the vote is accurate.
What excuse can someone give for not wanting the most accurate count possible when the vote is so close?

Sadly, I believe this is the kind of thing we have to look forward too over the next 4 years.
President George W Bushs motto: **** the people, give me power any way I can get it.

If this doesn't open any of your republican eyes as to the quality (or lack thereof) of this man who has been using "integrity" as a platform, then you are willingly blind.

[Pit Dog]

Sadly, I would have to agree.

[Masala]

Hey Pit,
what do you think of this scenario:

If I were George W Bush jr, this is what I would do (assuming he wins Florida):

I would conceed. I don't say this as someone who hates George Bush (I do) but strictly from a Machiavellian perspective.

If George Bush made some grandios speach about how 'Yes, he did win the electoral vote and legally he is the President, but there is obviously something wrong with the system when the will of the people is not the deciding factor for President. Therefore, out of respect for the American People, he is giving the Presidency to the man who won the popular vote'..blah blah blah. Now before anyone calls me crazy, check this out:

If the above happened and was orchestrated correctly,
Gore gets to be pres for 4 years. Liebermans senate seat goes to the Republicans, so they maintain a majority in both House and Senate. Gore gets to deal with 4 years of frustrating gridlock and will get the blame when our economy runs out of steam. He will still face a divided country and will be basically powerless. In the meantime, due to his actions and speach, George W gets to kick back for 4 more years in Texas, and then sweeps in to the presidency because of all the independent (and perhaps even some Democrat) votes he will have moved to his side out of respect for his actions in stepping down to the will of the people.

So, my Machiavellian Play for the day: George steps down and then sweeps into the presidency in 4 years with 65% of the vote and a true mandate, and keeps the office for 8 years.
Much much better than what he is facing right now.

Good thing he is not smart enough and is too short sighted to think of this himself hehe

[judo guy]

The lawsuit was stupid. It was a complete political blunder.

The bigger question is where does it all end?

Should Bush demand a manual recount in every Republican strongold in Florida? There are tens of thousands of ballots unread in other districts. I think it is a due process issue. If they are counted manually in one district they should be counted manually in all districts. This could lead to a further delay of the certification of the vote in Florida. What happens if they aren't certified by December 18th? All of the electoral votes in Florida are negated. How does that help the people of Florida?

What about other states? Should this process proceed in Wisconsin, Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon and New Hampshire?

There are always going to be discrepancies in elections. The primary reason is a certain percentage of the people will always be stupid.

Personally, I think there are only a few solutions that are satisfactory.

1) A manual count of all ballots in Florida.

2) The striking down of the manual count in West Palm Beach and the election decided by the outstanding absentee ballots.

3) One candidate graciously steps down.

The election shouldn't be decided in the courts.

[Mickey Finn]

flip a farking coin

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by judo guy

The election shouldn't be decided in the courts.

Unfortunately, I think the writing is on the wall. I hope I am wrong, but it looks to me as if this thing WILL eventually (please God) be decided in the courts. My prediction is this turns into a GIANT political pissing match, with recounts, hand counts, and more “ballot confusion” spreading to other states that Gore carried by very slim margins.

A revote opens up a whole Pandora’s box of questions I don’t want to go into. Personally I think the butterfly ballot should be adopted by ALL jurisdictions. It seems to be kind a mini mental competency test. If you can’t figure it out, you have no business voting. My neighbor’s wife is a third grade teacher. She gave copies of the ballot to 25 kids and told them to vote for Gore. 25 out of 25 got it right.

Oh well, the candidates and this election are such a joke it seems appropriate that the next leader of the free world is chosen by people who watch cartoons all day and wear Depends.

[judo guy]

Here are a few more thoughts.

Anyone who thinks this recount has anything to do with "expressing the people's will" is kidding themselves. It is one side trying to scratch out a few more votes for their candidate and nothing more.

Why didn't the Gore campaign ask for other recounts in heavily Republican districts? Maybe they thought the votes weren't there? Don't those people have a "right" to a fair and accurate accounting?

Also regardless of "hanging chads" it seems to me that throughout the state of Florida (and probably throughout the country) a large percentage of ballots are thrownout because they have voted for two candidates or forgot to vote for any candidate. If we extrapolate that 5% of the electorate is so stupid (based on some Florida counties) that they can't handle a ballot, then there are over 5 million ballots out there that haven't been counted. What about those people? Shouldn't their will be "expressed" also?

Deeter, you bring up a good point. Machines are more efficient and objective than humans. This manual recount has more room for errors than machines. Machines have no agenda when they count.

If a citizen was so stupid that they didn't vote properly, their vote shouldn't count. Just like the nearly 50 percent of the electorate that didn't vote.

[Masala]

Judo Guy you got it all wrong;

First of all, this is the closest election we or anyone else has even seen in their lifetimes. There SHOULD be recounts. Of course Gore isn't going to demand recounts in contested areas when the original count went his way...geez don't you think you are asking a little much of him? The difference here is that you DO NOT see Gore filing a lawsuit to end the BY HAND recount going on in New Mexico, which just put Bush ahead there by 17 votes. You also do not see Bush complaining about that recount. So who is being biased here?

And as for Human vs. Machine: They had these election officials on NPR who said that if you feed these ballots into the machines 10 times you will get 7 slightly different answers. Duringf normal elections this is no big deal because the diffence between a couple thousand votes doesn't matter. But when it is this close, they ALL specified that the ONLY was to get an accurate count is to do it by hand.

THe machines were not instituted to fix human error or bias. They were instituted to speed up the tally so we could all get results by midnight.

[judo guy]

Here is a link to the Bush lawsuit in case anyone cares to read it. I'm just printing it out now.

http://www.netside.net/usdcfls/publications/cv9009cmp.pdf

Masala,

I have no problems with recounts. I have problems with the process. If a manual count is done in one county it should be done in all counties. As John, said there is a reason that we count on machines instead of people. So I think that a manual recount of all the ballots would be a bad idea.

I watched the Palm Beach council vote on this last night. The question was asked if the recount showed any evidence that the machines were not functioning normally. The answer was no.

Am I asking too much of Gore? No. It is he who is making the statements about asking for the recounts so the people's will can be expressed. I'm just pointing out my reasons for believing he only cares about certain peoples will being expressed and not the entire population.



I believe the Florida statute has been interpreted that manual counts are used for when it looks like the preferred method of counting (by machine) is tainted because of machines not functioning normally. Then a manual recount makes sense. Obviously, I'm not a lawyer and have no idea how it will play out.

I think it comes down to due process issues, which is why I guess this will eventually be settled in a federal court.



[Edited by judo guy on 11-12-2000 at 11:50 AM]

[Masala]

Actually there is a good case for a Re-vote in Palm Beach as well: florida law states that all ballots must have the canidates on the left and buttons on the right.

hehe

[Ryu (non-working password]

Don't look at me...I think both guys are acting like idiots..

I was extremely interested in politics this year. I'm starting to wonder again...


Ryu

[judo guy]

Masala,

Sorry, the state courts have already ruled it was a legal ballot.

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by Masala
Actually there is a good case for a Re-vote in Palm Beach as well: florida law states that all ballots must have the canidates on the left and buttons on the right.

hehe

Masala:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn’t that the standard for written (a.k.a. absentee) ballots?

[fascistfury]

you think that the undereducated portion of society should not be represented in our democracy? that would totally eliminate these peoples only legtimate channel for redress. are you willing to take the chance that these peoples will take other action to make sure their voices are heard? are you willing to face violence, riots, and mob rule? that is the result of oppresing peoples. are you willing to see an entire system under which you enoy so muh freedom, power, and luxury completely destroyed? that is the result of oppressing peoples. we have seen it all across the world that unrepresented peoples have risen up to take power back from their oppressors. remember what Mao said, "power is at the end of a gun barrel."

[judo guy]

Masala,

I'm reading the Bush lawsuit. Did you realize that according to Florida statute 102.112 that if Palm Beach County does not certify all their votes by 5 pm Tuesday that all the votes of the county may be ignored?

That would lead to a big win by Bush.